Educated in art or not......

[analog.universe]

So, the thing that I want to add is the significance of who is teaching you.

I don't know much about formal education in the visual arts, but a number of my friends have had formal education in music. Listening to them speak, certain schools acquire reputations for producing risky musicians, predictable musicians, technical musicians that lack emotion, emotive musicians that lack technique. I'm sure a lot of the same happens in the visual arts. Everybody interprets their own education differently, but every teacher interprets their job differently as well. I think sometimes people do get blinded by an art education so to speak.

It reminds of that Taoist quote, I forget exactly how it goes. Something to the effect of "learn my teachings, and then forget that you read them." I think if you really want to be connected to your art, and produce art that connects with others, you need to have a big-picture/amorphous kind of understanding of it. It's impossible to teach the big picture though, all you can teach is specific bits and pieces. If you learn the pieces well enough that you understand everything as a whole, then the pieces themselves lose their relevance. Because you can, in effect "re-derive" them from your own knowledge.

...which ties into what folks were talking about earlier regarding some formal education but not enough. Until you've got enough to get the amorphous knowledge blob, all you have is a pile of pieces that don't connect.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

So you are implying one must be educated in the arts to appreciate it?

Wow.

NO! I am differentiating between liking something as a matter of taste, and liking something because it comes from a deeper understanding of the work.

I have a friend that is becoming a sommelier. I have always enjoyed wine. I never really appreciated it. I could say it's sour, or its too dry, but I never looked for the finer points. But being around my friend, and learning more about wine, I have become much more choosy. She has taught me the vocabulary, the things to look for. She has allowed me to put my likes into words, so that I can go to a wine seller and tell them the kind of wine I am looking for, and get recommendations. I am more educated, and have no problem dropping $50 on a bottle. Here's the catch! I still have my TASTES, and I have purchased expensive bottles that I would never buy again. But now I can appreciate, or understand whats going on with that particular wine to say why it doesn't appeal to ME.

Mind you this friend is so good that I was amazed at a restaurant, when she asked how long the special offered was open. The waiter said a couple hours, and she asked for a taste. She rejected it and told him it was at least 6 hours old. The waiter asked, and she was right, and they opened a new bottle for her! Now I don't ever expect to reach that level of knowing, taste, appreciation. I don't have the desire to take it that far. I would never have known the difference a few hours makes.

I'm not going to look at a piece of art, not like it, then change my mind because I find it has some elements of artistic design.

A piece of art either pleases my eyes or doesn't.

And that's all well and good. I believe the discussion is whether or not art education is beneficial. We have a whole lot of people who are not educated on the subject saying it's not important. These people are throwing out their opinions based on what? NOTHING. We have a whole lot of people here attempting to learn the art of photography, saying art education isn't important. They say composition isn't important. They say screw the rules, do what you want. Don't you get it? The ignorant on the subject who want to learn, are rejecting being taught, rejecting being educated, and spuing that forth to others who are here to learn. And there level of expertise on the subject. ZERO

I'm not saying elements of artistic design and theory are not important. They are great tools and knowledge is definitely power.

So, people should learn them, right?

I am saying one does not need to understand or even know them to appreciate art.

Like I said, that comes down to taste. One may like a particular work because they are fond of the color red, or they like horses, or mountains, or cars, or excitement, or calm. These are all issues of ones individual tastes, not of real art appreciation.

Because if the artist is using them wisely, the viewer should not need to understand them, the concepts the artist is trying to convey should come through during viewing even to an unedumacated person as you so nicely stated.

That's just it. This forum is full of people trying to learn to take better pictures. They want to become the artist. This discussion stems from the standpoint of being a photographer MAKING art. Is art education important to do so? YES!

On a side note, I have enjoyed every piece of art you have posted since I have joined. With no edumacations in the arts. Why because you use artist design, and it comes through to me, the viewer.

That doesn't mean you understand what I have done. But you have been around enough that you are indeed becoming educated on the subject. Amirite? You are picking up the finer points because you are learning. You are stepping away from liking things just as a matter of taste.

Art appreciation isn't just "liking" something, just because. Art apreciation is understanding WHY you like it, or WHY you don't. It's being able to say why it works, and why it does't, through your eyes.

Abstract art is misunderstood by the masses. It's dismissed by those learning art as something that is sooo out there, and beyond them, when the actuallity is that it is the very essence of what they are trying to learn. I have had the immensely pleasurable experience of seeing quite a few people here, on this forum, go from not liking abstract work, not getting it, to finally having that "Ah Ha!" moment where it clicks. They are the ones that will truly learn. Shooting abstract images, can be used as a tool to learn. I don't think everyone should give up what they love to shoot, be it horses, mountains, people, or cars. But learning to take successful abstract images will improve the work they want to focus on.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Bitter why the need to be so harsh and rude in your post. I have never have been condesending to anyone. Quite a good way to keep a new member around. I think what you have failed to miss is that this was only my opinion, which everyone has the right to. And Overread has already changed my view of how I was portraying the subject. Your response was unneaded especially in the form that you have done so.

Sorry.

Why not argue against my points instead of calling me rude?
Can you deny anything I said?

Are your opinions based on knowledge of the subject or are you arguing from ignorance? Answer that.

I think the problem is you are offended by a word. I am not calling you an ignorant boob or anything. I am using the term as a descriptor of your level of education on the subject matter. It's not a put down. We are all ignorant of a great many things. Some just choose to not enter debates they know very little about.

Read my reply again. Tell me if there is any truth in what I said or not. Don't read it as an attack. Read it as straight forward information. Debate it. Tell me where I am wrong. Admit where I am right.

You said:

I never studied art nor do I want to.

But you are here, and you want to learn to take better pictures...well, I am assuming you do.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

It reminds of that Taoist quote, I forget exactly how it goes. Something to the effect of "learn my teachings, and then forget that you read them." I think if you really want to be connected to your art, and produce art that connects with others, you need to have a big-picture/amorphous kind of understanding of it. It's impossible to teach the big picture though, all you can teach is specific bits and pieces. If you learn the pieces well enough that you understand everything as a whole, then the pieces themselves lose their relevance. Because you can, in effect "re-derive" them from your own knowledge.

Well said!

Your bit about teachers, is true. That's why you should never rely on just one source for your education of anything you attempt in life. Pull your knowledge gained from as many places as possible, and reassemble them into your own hopefully unique view of the subject. It's also why studying at The Cleveland Institute of Art is so much different than studying at the Art Institutes (Ai), or the Draw Tippy Art Instruction Schools, Inc. Some community colleges have fantastic art programs, some suck.

 

[Compaq]

So, abstract images. I have learned to appreciate abstracts. I can't really explain why, but more often than not I find lines, curves, textures and shapes pleasing to look at. That doesn't seem to me as "valid" reasons for liking them, as I feel I should be able to interpret these dimensions and put words to why I find them pleasing. Sometimes I appreciate the artist for taking them - or, rather, the artist's ability to find the subject. But, that doesn't sound right either. And I fear starting to like photographs just because it "fulfills a list of points".

But I trust that shooting more abstracts will indeed improve one's artistic eyes, seeing things that others miss. Being able to notice shapes, textures, shadows, lines or curves, contrasts (and not only bright/dark, but also contrasts in textures, lines, warmth), and put them together in appealing ways. I just wrote in my photo note book to take more abstracts, and I think I will (try to).

 

[mishele]

You can't say you don't need something like art education, because you have never had it. That just doesn't make sense. You don't know how you would feel looking at art through educated eyes. Why wouldn't you want to be able to see both sides and then have an educated opinion. If you still feel the same way, that it's not needed, more power to you.

No, no, no. Definitely not saying it's not needed. Just trying to point out that a great artist can convey what they want to an uneducated person with knowledge of artistic design.

I'm really just trying to stick up for the person bitter bashed for being "unedamacated".

Remember though, you started this thread and you were the one feeling hindrances caused by your education in art. You said it yourself, you were looking for the elements of design instead of letting the artwork flow.

I like to look at art and let it flow. Yes, it's nice to have an understanding of the whys and hows of the design of a certain piece. But in my opinion, that is the job of the artist to use these elements so that I, the viewer, need not think about them.
When one has to search for elements within a piece of artwork, I feel, that the artist didn't use them properly. I shouldn't have to find them. They should flow smoothly.

Maybe it's just me, but looking for the elements of design in art isn't letting it flow.

I started this post because I looked at photos on this site in a critique mode. That was the only hindrance. When I visit a gallery, I have no problem letting the art flow. My knowledge of art design and theories has changed my life!! lol I'm a true believer that it opens your eyes to a new world. =)

Sorry for the vague first post. I thought if I made it a broader topic we could have some good debates......I think that worked.

 

[mishele]

If you like this thread try this one.....lol
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photographic-discussions/271730-thinking-beyond-rules.html

 

[bentcountershaft]

It reminds of that Taoist quote, I forget exactly how it goes. Something to the effect of "learn my teachings, and then forget that you read them." I think if you really want to be connected to your art, and produce art that connects with others, you need to have a big-picture/amorphous kind of understanding of it. It's impossible to teach the big picture though, all you can teach is specific bits and pieces. If you learn the pieces well enough that you understand everything as a whole, then the pieces themselves lose their relevance. Because you can, in effect "re-derive" them from your own knowledge.

Well said!

Your bit about teachers, is true. That's why you should never rely on just one source for your education of anything you attempt in life. Pull your knowledge gained from as many places as possible, and reassemble them into your own hopefully unique view of the subject. It's also why studying at The Cleveland Institute of Art is so much different than studying at the Art Institutes (Ai), or the Draw Tippy Art Instruction Schools, Inc. Some community colleges have fantastic art programs, some suck.

I was fortunate to have a great art professor my first semester in college. I didn't think he was great right away, I thought he was a pain in the ass and I wanted to kick him in the face. Every time I asked a question he asked me one in reply. I of course thought, "What a dick!" about him quite a bit. All the time he would do that and all the time it would piss me off. I don't know how long it took my stubborn ass to figure out that he wasn't teaching me design he was teaching me critical thinking.

 

[jake337]

So you are implying one must be educated in the arts to appreciate it?

Wow.

NO! I am differentiating between liking something as a matter of taste, and liking something because it comes from a deeper understanding of the work.

I have a friend that is becoming a sommelier. I have always enjoyed wine. I never really appreciated it. I could say it's sour, or its too dry, but I never looked for the finer points. But being around my friend, and learning more about wine, I have become much more choosy. She has taught me the vocabulary, the things to look for. She has allowed me to put my likes into words, so that I can go to a wine seller and tell them the kind of wine I am looking for, and get recommendations. I am more educated, and have no problem dropping $50 on a bottle. Here's the catch! I still have my TASTES, and I have purchased expensive bottles that I would never buy again. But now I can appreciate, or understand whats going on with that particular wine to say why it doesn't appeal to ME.

Mind you this friend is so good that I was amazed at a restaurant, when she asked how long the special offered was open. The waiter said a couple hours, and she asked for a taste. She rejected it and told him it was at least 6 hours old. The waiter asked, and she was right, and they opened a new bottle for her! Now I don't ever expect to reach that level of knowing, taste, appreciation. I don't have the desire to take it that far. I would never have known the difference a few hours makes.

I'm not going to look at a piece of art, not like it, then change my mind because I find it has some elements of artistic design.

A piece of art either pleases my eyes or doesn't.

And that's all well and good. I believe the discussion is whether or not art education is beneficial. We have a whole lot of people who are not educated on the subject saying it's not important. These people are throwing out their opinions based on what? NOTHING. We have a whole lot of people here attempting to learn the art of photography, saying art education isn't important. They say composition isn't important. They say screw the rules, do what you want. Don't you get it? The ignorant on the subject who want to learn, are rejecting being taught, rejecting being educated, and spuing that forth to others who are here to learn. And there level of expertise on the subject. ZERO


So, people should learn them, right?
Like I said, that comes down to taste. One may like a particular work because they are fond of the color red, or they like horses, or mountains, or cars, or excitement, or calm. These are all issues of ones individual tastes, not of real art appreciation.

Because if the artist is using them wisely, the viewer should not need to understand them, the concepts the artist is trying to convey should come through during viewing even to an unedumacated person as you so nicely stated.

That's just it. This forum is full of people trying to learn to take better pictures. They want to become the artist. This discussion stems from the standpoint of being a photographer MAKING art. Is art education important to do so? YES!

On a side note, I have enjoyed every piece of art you have posted since I have joined. With no edumacations in the arts. Why because you use artist design, and it comes through to me, the viewer.

That doesn't mean you understand what I have done. But you have been around enough that you are indeed becoming educated on the subject. Amirite? You are picking up the finer points because you are learning. You are stepping away from liking things just as a matter of taste.

Art appreciation isn't just "liking" something, just because. Art apreciation is understanding WHY you like it, or WHY you don't. It's being able to say why it works, and why it does't, through your eyes.

Abstract art is misunderstood by the masses. It's dismissed by those learning art as something that is sooo out there, and beyond them, when the actuallity is that it is the very essence of what they are trying to learn. I have had the immensely pleasurable experience of seeing quite a few people here, on this forum, go from not liking abstract work, not getting it, to finally having that "Ah Ha!" moment where it clicks. They are the ones that will truly learn. Shooting abstract images, can be used as a tool to learn. I don't think everyone should give up what they love to shoot, be it horses, mountains, people, or cars. But learning to take successful abstract images will improve the work they want to focus on.

I do understand the points you are making and I agree.


I think I am just a strange one. Maybe it is just me. I am not implying just "liking" something. I really don't know how to put this into words my friend.

When I view art I do "feel" what the artist is trying to interpret or convey. Far more than just like. When I view a piece of artwork and I "truly" feel something is when I enjoy it most. When I truly feel something in a piece, it has many elements of design in it. What I'm saying is I don't want to have to look for those elements in order to understand it. When used well, you just "get" it without thinking to deeply.

Also. I thought the thread was about whether having knowledge in the arts could be a hindrance when viewing others work.

I just want to state that I never said education in the arts was a bad thing or not necessary, but that one can still more than "like" art without knowing the elements of design. Maybe they can't explain the feelings the get from the art they view, but the still have them(at least me).

 

[cgipson1]

Interesting discussion! Thank you for starting it, Mishele! Makes one think.....

 

[ahcigar1]

Bitter why the need to be so harsh and rude in your post. I have never have been condesending to anyone. Quite a good way to keep a new member around. I think what you have failed to miss is that this was only my opinion, which everyone has the right to. And Overread has already changed my view of how I was portraying the subject. Your response was unneaded especially in the form that you have done so.

Sorry.

Why not argue against my points instead of calling me rude?
Can you deny anything I said?

Are your opinions based on knowledge of the subject or are you arguing from ignorance? Answer that.

I think the problem is you are offended by a word. I am not calling you an ignorant boob or anything. I am using the term as a descriptor of your level of education on the subject matter. It's not a put down. We are all ignorant of a great many things. Some just choose to not enter debates they know very little about.

Read my reply again. Tell me if there is any truth in what I said or not. Don't read it as an attack. Read it as straight forward information. Debate it. Tell me where I am wrong. Admit where I am right.

You said:

I never studied art nor do I want to.

But you are here, and you want to learn to take better pictures...well, I am assuming you do.

I'm not denying what you have said what I have an issue with is the way you said it. There is a way to say things constructively rather than being condescending and rude. Basically calling me stupid and ignorant and "unedumacated" as you like to put it. You are right I haven't had any formal training but I do know a thing or two about the subject and yes I am still learning and have joined this board to learn as I am sure you have as well along with everyone else. Everyone can learn and teach each other. Art and photography are a never ending subject that is always giving you new things to discover.

 

[mishele]

Bitter why the need to be so harsh and rude in your post. I have never have been condesending to anyone. Quite a good way to keep a new member around. I think what you have failed to miss is that this was only my opinion, which everyone has the right to. And Overread has already changed my view of how I was portraying the subject. Your response was unneaded especially in the form that you have done so.

Sorry.

Why not argue against my points instead of calling me rude?
Can you deny anything I said?

Are your opinions based on knowledge of the subject or are you arguing from ignorance? Answer that.

I think the problem is you are offended by a word. I am not calling you an ignorant boob or anything. I am using the term as a descriptor of your level of education on the subject matter. It's not a put down. We are all ignorant of a great many things. Some just choose to not enter debates they know very little about.

Read my reply again. Tell me if there is any truth in what I said or not. Don't read it as an attack. Read it as straight forward information. Debate it. Tell me where I am wrong. Admit where I am right.

You said:

I never studied art nor do I want to.

But you are here, and you want to learn to take better pictures...well, I am assuming you do.

I'm not denying what you have said what I have an issue with is the way you said it. There is a way to say things constructively rather than being condescending and rude. Basically calling me stupid and ignorant and "unedumacated" as you like to put it. You are right I haven't had any formal training but I do know a thing or two about the subject and yes I am still learning and have joined this board to learn as I am sure you have as well along with everyone else. Everyone can learn and teach each other. Art and photography are a never ending subject that is always giving you new things to discover.

Here you go........start learning.....lol
Composition and the Elements of Visual Design
10 Top Photography Composition Rules | Photography Mad

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

 

[Overread]

Does this mean you've given up/got bored of popcorn now?

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

No. It's the much sought after candy coating. Even though it's the apple that's the part that's good for you.