HELP! Bad Photo Shoot/Gig: How to deal with the aftermath

[nonamexx]

Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.

Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally or competitively is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and learn from a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.

It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.

 

[AaronLLockhart]

Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.

Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.

It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.

I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.

I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services. The entire purpose of my photography business is to let the photography sustain itself. It's not a sink or swim situation where I must rely on my photographic income to survive. It's solely supplemental. I use it solely for the purpose of disposable income, and to upgrade my gear.

Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer.


That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting

 

[kathyt]

Yeah, I'm sort of trying to avoid giving personal "advice" here, but... if someone were giving me this much of a hard time over photos I'd be wondering a bit... and if they were giving me this much of a hard time over THESE photos I'd REALLY be wondering.

I blame etsy and Pinterest.

I'd add in Instagram. Hate sites like those.

Don't go hating on Esty now. It is a beautiful thing.

 

[amolitor]

Lots of professions have opportunities to do pro bono work as a way to build up experience. It's typically a fast way to get exposure to a wide array of jobs, whereas working paid gigs will tend to drop you into a specific niche quite quickly and thoroughly. A business tends to serve a specific market segment. Working for free, you serve anyone and everyone.

 

[nonamexx]

Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.

Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.

It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.

I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.

I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services.

Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer.


That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting

I agree. But I am a legal professional and it's my only source of income. I cannot afford to do free work for clients yet because I haven't a steady source of income. Taking up court cases is a long term commitment and also involves costs as well, and I understand that it's not the same as a photography session. Still the point about establishing one's worth might be pertinent. I feel it's a very tough and delicate act to establish a price on your skill and qualification and still remain competitive in a tough market.

P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.

 

[Steve5D]

I mentioned that established professionals can afford to do free work because they already have a reputation and have a set value on their services. Individuals starting out don't have the luxury of being able to render free services. It's a matter of marketing your value early so that you set a benchmark.

With regards to those just starting out, what "value" is there to market if someone's never shot a paying gig before?

Final word: You can do free work if you want. I've had bad experiences undertaking free work. Maybe photography is different as a profession, but in other professions involving more than one day's work or a longer time commitment, it is not worth it.

Pro bono lawyers, last time I checked, rarely (if ever) get things wrapped up in a day...

 

[AaronLLockhart]

Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.

It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.

I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.

I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services.

Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer.


That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting

I agree. But I am a legal professional and it's my only source of income. I cannot afford to do free work for clients yet because I haven't a steady source of income. Taking up court cases is a long term commitment and also involves costs as well, and I understand that it's not the same as a photography session. Still the point about establishing one's worth might be pertinent. I feel it's a very tough and delicate act to establish a price on your skill and qualification and still remain competitive in a tough market.

Nah, it's actually quite different (in my case anyway). I don't set a specific set of pricing for anyone to get involved and read. Most of the time, my prices fluctuate within $20-50 depending on the client's budget. The great thing about photography, is that the last client doesn't know how much you're going to charge the next client, and the next client doesn't know what you charged the last one. Even if your prices are more expensive than they'd like to see, if they feel like you will take care of them, they will still pay it. If they absolutely cannot afford it, they will be very quick to say so, I promise.

 

[Steve5D]

P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.

First, who said the woman who "hired" the OP was well off?

Second, why is someone who's poor "deserving" of anything?

 

[nonamexx]

I mentioned that established professionals can afford to do free work because they already have a reputation and have a set value on their services. Individuals starting out don't have the luxury of being able to render free services. It's a matter of marketing your value early so that you set a benchmark.

With regards to those just starting out, what "value" is there to market if someone's never shot a paying gig before?

Final word: You can do free work if you want. I've had bad experiences undertaking free work. Maybe photography is different as a profession, but in other professions involving more than one day's work or a longer time commitment, it is not worth it.

Pro bono lawyers, last time I checked, rarely (if ever) get things wrapped up in a day...

I live in a different country and I don't know the American legal system.

I think the competitive dynamics are different in any case.

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.

 

[nonamexx]

P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.

First, who said the woman who "hired" the OP was well off?

Second, why is someone who's poor "deserving" of anything?

No, I was speaking generally.

As for poor people being deserving, it's a whole different debate altogether and I'm not going down that road. All I'm saying is that I won't charge for poor people who are in desperate need of help.

 

[AaronLLockhart]

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.

Negative, this is the same reason so many small time retail chains that try to compete with large companies like Wal-Mart and Best Buy don't make it. You have to stay competitive within reason, you have to know the costs of operating your own business, and you have to know what the fair market is for your skillset. These guys spend a TON of money on "WOW factor" to attempt to make their business look like it's this multi-million dollar chain. When really, they can't afford that kind of expense.

I'm not going to pay $10,000 for a lawyer that has only been practicing for 2 years. However, I would pay that to one who has been practicing for 30 years, and has won numerous cases.

You charge within your means. You don't dictate how much you're worth. The consumer can see right through that.

 

[nonamexx]

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.

Negative, this is the same reason so many small time retail chains that try to compete with large companies like Wal-Mart and Best Buy don't make it. You have to stay competitive within reason, you have to know the costs of operating your own business, and you have to know what the fair market is for your skillset. These guys spend a TON of money on "WOW factor" to attempt to make their business look like it's this multi-million dollar chain. When really, they can't afford that kind of expense.

I'm not going to pay $10,000 for a lawyer that has only been practicing for 2 years. However, I would pay that to one who has been practicing for 30 years, and has won numerous cases.

You charge within your means. You don't dictate how much you're worth. The consumer can see right through that.

I already mentioned the need to be competitive in pricing and already stated that it is a delicate balance. Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it? You think I am a fool to charge heavily beyond my worth and still believe that I'll get clients? Setting the benchmark was about quality of work which will then help you build worth.

The whole debate was about charging vs not charging and not the price. You need to establish a value on your services, but do it realistically. Then with experience you can re-evaluate.

I don't know why I am being singled out for this treatment. I have a philosophy and try to live by it. I will stand by my philosophy.

 

[amolitor]

Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it?

It's an internet forum, that's how these things work Enfuriating, innit?

 

[Steve5D]

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.

Okay.

How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?

When I started shooting concerts, should I have set my "benchmark" to match that of a Neal Preston or a Henry Diltz? I guess I could've, although I had absolutely no point of reference for it. I could've set my benchmark much lower, but the reality is that I had no point of reference for that, either.

You can value yourself and your work, and that's perfectly fine. But that value may not be "real". What's "real" isn't what someone is able to pay, it's what they're willing to pay.

If I have, say, a 1959 Gibson Les Paul, I can say that its value is $200,000.00, and there would be more than a few people who would agree with that statement. But if I don't get someone to actually give me money for it, it's just another guitar...

 

[AaronLLockhart]

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.

I already mentioned the need to be competitive in pricing and already stated that it is a delicate balance. Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it?

I didn't pick a single word. I picked an entire sentence. Listen man, I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you. Simply letting you know that your "Kick off with guns blazing" method rarely works in successful business. That's all.