Is this site for people to get valid feedback or for others to get on their high hors

[sleist]

I always miss these threads. I need to stop taking so many pictures.

 

[DDGphotos]

FOLKS! ! ! send ME all the Nasty, Rude, IDIOTIC, judgmental assholes ! ! ! OHHH and especially the ARROGANT ONES. PLEAASSSEE

I can handle it TRUST ME ! ! ! !

I have no ego to attack, no FEELING to INSULT . . . . . . .


MA HA HA HA HA HA HA ! !

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Is this site for people to get valid feedback?

No.

This site is best for watching train wrecks.

To be honest.

 

[Ballistics]

I think the issue lies in the fact that certain vets critique when never asked, or better yet give opinions about artistic value. The term beginner is relative and very subjective, but my idea of a beginner is someone who is trying to learn the basics, and are here to learn about the basics of the science, not the art. I see far too much terms like "boring" being used regarding a pic. If I ask for a critique on a picture, I would wan't to hear things regarding composition, exposure, focus etc. The fact that a picture is uninteresting to people is irrelevant to me and doesn't help anyone. Perfecting the science will lead to the development of artistic style. That's how I see it. Not saying I am right, or anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. But that's just my take on any art.

Edit: I left something important out; while there are elitists on here, there are self centered newbs who think they are the next Ansel Adams and do go overboard about people who do give legitimate advice. 999 Times out of 1000, if you are posting in the beginners section asking for a CC - it's because you need it. Instead, people fish around looking for compliments on their ugly kids, or ****ty landscape pics, etc. There's both ends of the extreme spectrum here, just do your best to be in the middle.

Another thing I notice, there are "vets" here that get recognition for being helpful, but I am yet to see anything but condescending or non constructive comments from them. Also what others perceive as constructive is also subjective.

I will say though, creating a thread about elitists is at this point cliche'. There are elitists for literally every topic and that is just the way it is. Instead of devoting time towards them, just ignore them. You are only shining a negative and self destructive light on yourself.

My 2 cents. (Its american currency, so take it for what its worth ;] )

 

[manaheim]

I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.

However it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people.

This is a BEGINNERS forum, and if people can't give constructive feedback then they shouldn't bother.

My Mum always told me... "if you can't say anything nice, then keep quiet"

Thank you for your time, and I hope you enjoyed my rant!

Very very very few people on this forum have ANY idea as to 1. What art is, 2. What a "good" picture is, 3. How to properly give critique... yet LOTS AND LOTS of people on this forum seem to think they know a lot about all three. Statistically speaking, anyone who posts here looking for feedback is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, because what little feedback they get that is useful will be lost... oh so very lost... in the sea of absolute garbage that spews forth from people's keyboards.

As far as constructive or not... get over it. Being sensitive isn't going to get you anywhere. Some of the best feedback in my life has come from people who were insanely harsh with me. Get a thicker skin or get out of the game.

Why is it so many new members just don't get it.

Art is totally judgemental.

Yeah. That art is always judging me.

I believe you meant "subjective".

 

[sleist]

I think the issue ...
[SNIP]

If you post a photo in an online photography forum, people are going to comment on it. That's kind of the point isn't it?
You can agree, disagree, ignore - really doesn't matter. You will know if the comment is good critique or not if you have half a brain and are willing to listen.
At some point, you will know what to ignore - not because it's wrong, but because you've grown enough as an artist to realize that you cannot - and should not - try to please everyone.
If you do try to please everyone, you'll just shoot the same crap as everyone else.

 

[Ballistics]

I think the issue ...
[SNIP]

If you post a photo in an online photography forum, people are going to comment on it. That's kind of the point isn't it?
You can agree, disagree, ignore - really doesn't matter. You will know if the comment is good critique or not if you have half a brain and are willing to listen.
At some point, you will know what to ignore - not because it's wrong, but because you've grown enough as an artist to realize that you cannot - and should not - try to please everyone.
If you do try to please everyone, you'll just shoot the same crap as everyone else.

You are missing my point.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I got your point, but disagree. Learning the technical, does not lead to learning the creative side. Technical and creative are separate entities. Tech can play a role in the creative and vice versa, but it's never too early to learn the creative side. I don't care too much about technical aspects, so I mainly comment on creativity and composition. It's where I can be most helpful. It's also the hardest thing to learn, I see every post in this section as wannabe artists, and the sad truth is a majority of people posting, ain't never gonna get it. The technical aspects of photography are pretty easy to learn. I wouldn't even give technical the weight of being even half the battle.

 

[Ballistics]

I got your point, but disagree. Learning the technical, does not lead to learning the creative side. Technical and creative are separate entities. Tech can play a role in the creative and vice versa, but it's never too early to learn the creative side. I don't care too much about technical aspects, so I mainly comment on creativity and composition. It's where I can be most helpful. It's also the hardest thing to learn, I see every post in this section as wannabe artists, and the sad truth is a majority of people posting, ain't never gonna get it. The technical aspects of photography are pretty easy to learn. I wouldn't even give technical the weight of being even half the battle.

There's 2 sides to the coin, and while you disagree with me I actually agree with you to a degree. Especially the bold. As for me, I'm no artist. I don't plan on being one. But I disagree with you saying that technical is not half the battle. From what I read , it's the majority of the C&C comments from people here. "To centered, use the rule of thirds" "It's out of focus" "Poor Lighting"... I see this often. If all of these things were perfect, the only thing to talk about would be artistic value which at the end of the day, is pure opinion right? I'm no artist, but when I think musicians, photographers, painters, etc... the technical side is the base of their success. Also, isn't basic composition the science of photography?

 

[pgriz]

I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.

However it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people (on a personal level)

This is a BEGINNERS forum, and if people can't give constructive feedback then they shouldn't bother.

My Mum always told me... "if you can't say anything nice, then keep quiet" (joke btw)

Thank you for your time, and I hope you enjoyed my rant!

@ OP: A few thoughts…

“high horse”? Maybe, but the wannabee’s get knocked off their high horse(s) fast enough. Those who manage to stay on have earned the right to be on said horse(s).


As Keith (KmH) has noted in the second post to this thread, ART is totally judgemental. And since every artist puts themselves into their art, judgements on the art also reflect onto the artist. Since critiquing is also an art (ie, subjective, open to interpretation, done with varying degrees of skill, etc.), judgments of critiques also reflect back onto the ones making the critiques. So there is really no way of escaping the process of the person getting judged.


“rudeness” is subjective. It depends on the source. If someone who is a master in the field I’m trying to learn in, tells me that “You suck”, then I would consider that a fair comment, especially if I do indeed suck. If the same comment comes from someone who has no clue, then I can dismiss the comment as ignorant and rude. Therefore consider the source.


There is another aspect to criticism. We seem to be in a society where building up of “self-esteem” is a desired end-goal in and of itself. But a high “self-esteem” without the necessary achievement is a hollow vessel, a deck of cards waiting to be blown down, a Potemkin village. It’s the school where 100% are above average. Criticism is one of the fires that either tempers the recipient, or burns them up. People don’t get to elite positions (in any field) without lots of hard work, lots of situations where everything conspires to knock them down, and lots of situations where most people would quit. The ones destined to become the elite don’t quit. They don’t whine either. They hunker down, endure the crap, and master the art in their field. The saying “Steel is tempered through fire” applies.


Your mother's advice is relevant in normal social interaction. When one comes to a forum such as this, I presume the goal is to get honest feedback and to assess whether one's impression of the "goodness" of one's art is matched by the other people in the forum. When someone says "oh, that's nice!", they are engaging in social interaction, not critique.


“… And to get good results doesn’t always cost a fortune” (post 26). True, but photography is a field with tools, and the quality of the tools affects the end result. Some results are only possible with the right tool. It is true that a talented artist can extract much more out of the use of any tool than would a less capable person, but it is also true that using the right tool for the job makes the job that much easier to achieve.


@ ballistics: I have to agree with BJ. Technical quality and mastery of same is a precondition for good art. It doesn’t make art good. Whether it is photography, or wood-working, or playing the piano, or singing, doing something technically well does not mean the end result is emotionally engaging. And in the end, the difference between technical illustration and art is the degree of emotional response one gets. If the emotional response is lacking, then it’s not great art. Making an analogy to writing, good technical performance in photography is equivalent to writing complete sentences, using proper punctuation, not making spelling errors. Good writing goes beyond those basics, to engage the reader in a way that engages the mind, the emotions, and sometimes, the spirit.


You are right in saying that the “the technical side is the BASE of their success.” But the real point is that the base is a foundation – it has to be strong to support whatever house you build upon it. It is the house that one notices (the composition, the arrangement of elements to give a pleasing or provocative end result), unless the foundation is flawed, in which case the whole structure is also flawed. Great images are like great architecture - you get the "WOW". Well-exposed, technically correct images are like well-built bungalows - comfortable and interesting to the inhabitant, but no-one else. They are "snapshots".

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

A majority of CC here is technical, because that's easiest for most people to speak too, especially other beginners. RoT's is not technical, it's compositional. It's a basic, easily grasped, construct of composition. While it seems simple, it really has some deeper nuance that is missed by a lot of people. It's easily thrown about, just like the awesome "try a different angle". The technical stuff is easiest to help someone with. Focus and exposue is simple. It either is or it isn't. Lighting is more difficult, but it is still a fairly concrete concept. Composition isn't the science of photography. It is more psychological, but the concepts are backed by scientific studies. Composition is older than photography, and is used in all visual arts. Even music has similar theories of composition. For example, repitition, patterns, and pattern breaks. The technical side of any medium, speaks more to the process, the manipulation, or simply the "how to". Composition, creativity, communication via the visual language, and using them to "say" something, or evoke emotion is a whole different, complex, deep, nuanced animal, most will never fully grasp. When a visual art work is creative, evokes emotion, or a response from the viewer, the technical side can easily be overlooked and still be considered a successful work. While repeatedly making technically perfect images that lack substance, lack interest, and lack even a basic use of the visual language, will nearly always be failures.

 

[Trever1t]

drama?

 

[Gaerek]

From what I read , it's the majority of the C&C comments from people here. "To centered, use the rule of thirds" "It's out of focus" "Poor Lighting"...

You believe these are technical issues, not artistic issues? Interesting...

The technical side is simply how you do something. The artistic side is why you do something. RoT is good to know how to use. But as an artist you need to know why you use it and why in some circumstances you don't.

Bitter is correct. The technical aspect is a small part of photography. This is why artists who've never picked up a camera before can become amazing photographers. Whereas everyone else, who doesn't understand art focus only on what they can know and control. Camera operation can be taught very quickly and easily. Hell, I taught my brother manual exposure in under 30 minutes. If someone doesn't think artistically however, it's nearly impossible to teach that, and especially not on a beginners photography forum.

 

[Ballistics]

Musical composition is mathematics and formulaic, which is obviously science. Same thing with visual arts composition, most of the elements of composition are broken down mathematically (Geometry,symmetry,rule of thirds/odds) but I know what you are getting at; it's how you use the basics to create something different. Personally though, I would rather perfect the science before I even think about getting creative. Everyone learns differently, and develops a style differently.

In my opinion, if just the science was preached here(in the beginners forum), there would be a whole lot less conflict and it would allow for further creative development. I feel like people would get it faster. But, at the end of the day, photography is an art not a science. So maybe my theory is worthless, but I know for me, I will be doing my best to learn the technical side before I try to get fancy.

 

[Ballistics]

From what I read , it's the majority of the C&C comments from people here. "To centered, use the rule of thirds" "It's out of focus" "Poor Lighting"...

You believe these are technical issues, not artistic issues? Interesting...

The technical side is simply how you do something. The artistic side is why you do something. RoT is good to know how to use. But as an artist you need to know why you use it and why in some circumstances you don't.

Bitter is correct. The technical aspect is a small part of photography. This is why artists who've never picked up a camera before can become amazing photographers. Whereas everyone else, who doesn't understand art focus only on what they can know and control. Camera operation can be taught very quickly and easily. Hell, I taught my brother manual exposure in under 30 minutes. If someone doesn't think artistically however, it's nearly impossible to teach that, and especially not on a beginners photography forum.

But its all subjective, you can't teach art because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, I would say light, focus, and rule of thirds is technical.Any rule for that matter is technical, because there is a right way and a wrong way to use them for the most part.