Is TPF 'the Internet'?

[robbins.photo]

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/the-laziest-generations/?_r=0 The up-and-coming generation is lazy. Ask anybody. People have been whining about how ill-equipped and entitled kids have become--for decades now. If we don't start making this generation of punks EARN IT, BY GOD!!!! then we will be reduced to ANARCHY! Yeah...we've heard the same old song for yearrrrrrs.

I blame your generation! Weren't you guys supposed to ruin the country when you were young?

Did my best. Well, at least from what little I actually remember from that time period at any rate.. lol

 

[pgriz]

Imagine...entry level job applicants are not very good at office jobs they have never held before! Wow!

I know you mean it sarcastically, but there's the other aspect - companies are organizations of people. New entrants are hired to a position, but the real integration requires learning (quickly) the informal ways the organization actually works. That's where the interpersonal skills, initiative, ability to figure out what needs to be done without being told, and knowing how to organize oneself are all important abilities to get a person to work in a group. A person who can self-organize and get up to speed quickly is extremely valuable, but unfortunately rare. If a new entrant is lucky, they will have a good boss/mentor/supervisor who gets them the necessary instruction, either formal or informal, and gets them going. The unlucky ones get thrown in with little support, and flounder. The truly resilient will figure it out. The rest...

 

[IByte]

Just what the world needs, roving gangs of shutterbugs.. lol

The Point & Shoot vs DSLRs gang.

The DX vs FX gang.

They hang around internets, and the loiter around B&H and Adorama stores. They push film which only takes that one roll before you are hooked!!

 

[robbins.photo]

Just what the world needs, roving gangs of shutterbugs.. lol

The Point & Shoot vs DSLRs gang.

The DX vs FX gang.

They hang around internets, and the loiter around B&H and Adorama stores. They push film which only takes that one roll before you are hooked!!

See, now I'm going to have to dust off a copy of Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgandy. "I killed a guy with a trident"... lol

 

[limr]

Imagine...entry level job applicants are not very good at office jobs they have never held before! Wow!

I know you mean it sarcastically, but there's the other aspect - companies are organizations of people. New entrants are hired to a position, but the real integration requires learning (quickly) the informal ways the organization actually works. That's where the interpersonal skills, initiative, ability to figure out what needs to be done without being told, and knowing how to organize oneself are all important abilities to get a person to work in a group. A person who can self-organize and get up to speed quickly is extremely valuable, but unfortunately rare. If a new entrant is lucky, they will have a good boss/mentor/supervisor who gets them the necessary instruction, either formal or informal, and gets them going. The unlucky ones get thrown in with little support, and flounder. The truly resilient will figure it out. The rest...

Exactly this. We're not talking about new applicants knowing exactly how to act and perform at all tasks at all times. But being on time? Dressing appropriately? Being able to figure some things out without their bosses holding their hands? I see it in my classes. Standards of appropriate behavior and independent/critical thinking skills are...well, we'll say that they are slipping.

 

[peter27]

I tend to agree with Lew and think we live more and more in a buy now, pay later society. Few people are prepared to spend much time and effort acquiring knowledge or developing and honing skills these days. Most people expect to have everything served up to them on a silver platter; without giving any thought at all to what went in to preparing their feast. I like the analogy of the librarian: there's nothing wrong with asking them where to find this or that book, but you must read them for yourselves!

 

[sm4him]

Whenever I come across a query, generally from someone new and/or young, that asks for an easily found fact, I reply that they should do an Internet search.

Occasionally someone will respond that asking on TPF is the Internet.

Coming to TPF to ask a question, whose factual answer can easily be found in the manual or on static pages without involving the work of others, is like going to a reference library and expecting the librarian to answer every question.

Answering every question, without expecting the new person to do some work, is actually detrimental as it keeps them from actually developing the skills to proceed themselves on anything. It make make you feel strong and powerful to be the font from which all knowledge flows but we should be teaching people how to grow rather than hand-feeding them every morsel and keeping them infants.

I'm sorry Lew, but I must say that for me, it's hard to believe you can be so advanced in years on this planet and still have such a dismissive, curmudgeonly attitude toward people who are learning. Have you EVER thought, for a second, just for a split-econd, that newbies, "do not know what it is that they do not know?" Have you ***ever** paused to think about that? It seems not. Your attitude toward hoarding knowledge disgusts me. I find your judgemental attitude simply appalling.

TPF is "on the Internet's world wide web". The Internet is a big,big place. It has the web, as well as Usenet (once great,once thriving,now left for dead). Yes, there are static pages with information. Pages absolutely loaded with information--of varying degrees of accuracy. Internet search engines spew results that might, or might not, be accurate. Evaluating the veracity of internet-based answers is a tricky business. MANY times, folk "wisdom" is disguised as fact. Newbies who know a little bit about a subject often do blog posts, or YouTube videos, and cheerful spew utter nonsense, happy in their willingness to share newbie-knowledge as if they were master photographers.

Just yesterday, I read a post that said a full frame d-slr camera gives "more depth of field than an APS-C camera". The poster then went into a few words about bokeh. OMG, trainwreck information.

^THIS.
I absolutely agree with the line of reasoning that has been mentioned wherein by doing your own research, you may discover things you didn't even KNOW you were looking for the answer to. And if the internet were just a great big World Book Encyclopedia, where 90% of the information was at least factually accurate, that would be one thing. But here's a little secret--much of what you read on the internet is WRONG. And if you don't know what you don't know, then you don't know that the author of the article you just googled doesn't know either.

How many times have I seen people derided for taking Ken Rockwell's advice as gospel truth? And yet, THAT is the direct result of people new to a hobby taking whatever results Google gives them as the gospel truth.

 

[sm4him]

SNIP>>however, how does failure to use other available resources by a member justify harassment and ridicule here?
The point is....I dont think it does.
if you don't think the question should have been asked, just ignore the thread.
if you cant provide an answer in a civil manner, just ignore the thread.>SNIP

Brilliant, concise advice! " if you don't think the question should have been asked, just ignore the thread. "

A lot like what my mother taught me as a boy, with, "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all." as in... if you cant provide an answer in a civil manner, just ignore the thread.

BUT...BUT...if I just IGNORE the thread, people will think I either haven't SEEN it, OR worse yet, they'll think--horror of all horrors--that I do not KNOW the answer!! If I simply choose not to participate in a thread, NOBODY will come away with an appropriate sense of my intellect nor of my incredible sense of self-restraint.

I suggest TPF offer a new button, at the top page of every thread--a "ST;WR" button (Stupid Topic; won't respond). That way, I can simply click the button to record my incredible self-restraint for posterity. Everyone can then SEE the names of those who have exercised such great control over their desire to snark, and only those who are too stupid to see how stupid the topic is will actually respond in the thread.

:lmao:

 

[Overread]

How many times have I seen people derided for taking Ken Rockwell's advice as gospel truth? And yet, THAT is the direct result of people new to a hobby taking whatever results Google gives them as the gospel truth.

I forgot about Ken, but he's a fantastic example of where high ranking google results are not reliable. Even when he's not writing lies many of his articles are written from a very singular approach to photography to the point where he excludes all other approaches. As a result anyone reading them would be able to shoot like Ken and not really any other way; missing out on huge areas (like the use of tripods!)

 

[pgriz]

The internet, as a human social forum, is full of the human foibles of self-aggrandizement, posturing, gossiping, rumour-mongering, trolling, etc. Being pack animals, we tend to align ourselves with those we like, or aspire to be, and denigrate others. Nothing particularly unique about how we interact. Of course, the internet also can be anonymous, which allows people to express what otherwise they would not dare in person, so in that way some act in rather juvenile ways. In a group setting (live groups, not the internet kind), you find the loud-mouths, know-it-alls, armchair experts, and most of us have figured out how to establish the veracity or reliability of these people. Information on the internet is no different, and requires a measure of skepticism and a healthy dose of background research to separate mostly-fact from mostly-fiction. As for newbies posting naive questions,

(edit... didn't finish the thought)... newbies, as Derrel has pointed out, may not even know the appropriate question to ask. Which is fine. What is less fine, but probably should be expected, is that there are some who don't put a lot of effort in trying to understand or to learn, or to apply the advice already given. It's their loss. If "we" see someone being obtuse, we already know how to deal with such people in real life - we generally avoid being in their company. They lose out on the richness of interaction that could be theirs.

 

[manaheim]

I'm a pack animal. I'm a donkey.

 

[Overread]

I'm a pack animal. I'm a donkey.

No - we already established that you're a bunny!

 

[robbins.photo]

I absolutely agree with the line of reasoning that has been mentioned wherein by doing your own research, you may discover things you didn't even KNOW you were looking for the answer to. And if the internet were just a great big World Book Encyclopedia, where 90% of the information was at least factually accurate, that would be one thing. But here's a little secret--much of what you read on the internet is WRONG.

Wait, what? Much of what I've read on the internet is wrong?!?!? So, the moon landing was real? And I don't actually need to wear this tinfoil hat? Ahhh.. crap.

And if you don't know what you don't know, then you don't know that the author of the article you just googled doesn't know either.

How many times have I seen people derided for taking Ken Rockwell's advice as gospel truth? And yet, THAT is the direct result of people new to a hobby taking whatever results Google gives them as the gospel truth.

Ken rockwell.. oh, ya, the guy with that website who's constantly begging for money on every single page?

 

[robbins.photo]

I'm a pack animal. I'm a donkey.

No - we already established that you're a bunny!

I'm sure we can still get saddle bags that are bunny sized. They sell everything on Ebay nowadays.

 

[hamlet]

SNIP>>however, how does failure to use other available resources by a member justify harassment and ridicule here?
The point is....I dont think it does.
if you don't think the question should have been asked, just ignore the thread.
if you cant provide an answer in a civil manner, just ignore the thread.>SNIP

Brilliant, concise advice! " if you don't think the question should have been asked, just ignore the thread. "

A lot like what my mother taught me as a boy, with, "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all." as in... if you cant provide an answer in a civil manner, just ignore the thread.

BUT...BUT...if I just IGNORE the thread, people will think I either haven't SEEN it, OR worse yet, they'll think--horror of all horrors--that I do not KNOW the answer!! If I simply choose not to participate in a thread, NOBODY will come away with an appropriate sense of my intellect nor of my incredible sense of self-restraint.

I suggest TPF offer a new button, at the top page of every thread--a "ST;WR" button (Stupid Topic; won't respond). That way, I can simply click the button to record my incredible self-restraint for posterity. Everyone can then SEE the names of those who have exercised such great control over their desire to snark, and only those who are too stupid to see how stupid the topic is will actually respond in the thread.

:lmao:

You have the restraint of a saint.