Is TPF 'the Internet'?

[peter27]

I think that if someone has a problem or reads something online (or picks up some info elsewhere) and finds that in practice it didn't work out, and comes to TPF and asks what they're doing wrong, that's one thing. Lazy Herberts who can't be bothered to try, try again before looking for help is quite another. This is how I read the spirit of the original post, and don't think this is negative or hostile towards newcomers.

 

[astroNikon]

This thread is burning up my browser it's growing so fast.

I had some smart-alic input .. but have forgotten 9 pages later !!

oh yeah ....

some newbies (myself included) didn't understand alot of the stuff in the manual. It makes perfect sense after you figure some stuff out.
So some stupid questions arise.

Though I know what Lew was atesting to in a bit.

One could "google", as the new term is, which camera is better, how to pose, ISO, etc etc etc

But with so much contradicting, inaccurate and stuff that just doesn't make sense out on the Internet ... one ends up posing a question.
yes, it is easier for the poster to just post "what is the best ISO to use" on this rather than searching, and reading, etc.
BUT we have to remember, that we REPLY to that question.

and if we don't like the post, we could just ignore it. But human nature is to not ignore stupid questions, they require a stupid answers. LOL


FYI, I remember the internet back in the early 1980s
Then the World Wide Web came about with graphical(ish) pages and general public access
Then the VP (re) invented the "Internet" and it is what it is today !!
And it is .... TPF

so if you don't like it
Blame the politicians



fyi, I just figured out how to use Bracketing, thanks to Al Gore's help.

 

[pixmedic]

just out of curiosity...
how is coming to a photography forum, starting a thread "which is the better lens, X or Y", and reading the opinions of the people that respond any different than going to Google, typing in "which is the better lens, X or Y", and then reading the opinions of people whose blogs and reviews came up first in the search engine?

given the amount of differing opinions on a lot of photographic topics (lenses, techniques, processing) and the massive amount of those differing opinions that a search engine will spit out in the form of blogs, review sites, magazine articles, etc etc, why is anyone here surprised that someone new to photography would be totally overwhelmed by Google's information overload and think coming to a photography forum to ask those questions would be a better idea?

What surprised me, is that instead of that being taken into consideration, beginner photographers coming here to start learning are automatically labeled as lazy and/or stupid for not finding that information somewhere else.

 

[runnah]

What surprised me, is that instead of that being taken into consideration, beginner photographers coming here to start learning are automatically labeled as lazy and/or stupid for not finding that information somewhere else.

Well its subjective opinion vs. factual information. I feel that things like "what is an f-stop/iso/WB/exposure" are all factually based things. Subjective opinions such as "what is the best lens for weddings" leave more wiggle room.

You can take the time to at least learn the basics then you have a solid foundations for asking educated questions and are more likely to receive good responses.

 

[astroNikon]

Maybe we need to have a sliding scale identifier for people

such as
>> --- DID YOU REALLY ASK THAT ? --- BEGINNER ---- INTERMEDIATE ---- ADVANCED ----- REALLY GOOD --- REALLY REALLY GOOD --- PRO --- Derrel --- <<

 

[pixmedic]

What surprised me, is that instead of that being taken into consideration, beginner photographers coming here to start learning are automatically labeled as lazy and/or stupid for not finding that information somewhere else.

Well its subjective opinion vs. factual information. I feel that things like "what is an f-stop/iso/WB/exposure" are all factually based things. Subjective opinions such as "what is the best lens for weddings" leave more wiggle room.

You can take the time to at least learn the basics then you have a solid foundations for asking educated questions and are more likely to receive good responses.

well, people go on the internet and choose different places to get that information.
Why is it such a sin for someone to decide that the best place to ask basic photography questions is by going right to a source of photographers?
why cant you learn the basics here? Quite a lot of "information sites" on the internet are little more than peoples blogs and websites trying to get you to buy their "tutorials". I can totally understand why people look a few of those sites and then don't want to deal with them.
people want new photographers to do their own research before coming here and asking stuff, but then chastise them when they quote Ken Rockwell.

by asking questions here, not only can they get their questions answered (in theory) but they can be shown examples, have their images edited by other people to show different processes, and fine tune their questions to better suit what they really want to know.
you guys are likening this to a college student asking someone to write their term paper for them.
how much "basic" knowledge should someone have to know before they are allowed to post here?

there are some people here that actually seem to enjoy helping out new members with basic questions.

 

[robbins.photo]

Why is it such a sin for someone to decide that the best place to ask basic photography questions is by going right to a source of photographers?

To answer your question I shall have Brother Derrel read from the Book of Exposure, second chapter, verse 12.

Lol..

Ok, honestly I don't get it either. I mean I get the point that some folks feel it's better for the OP to do their own research at least initially, I think everyone knows that the internet is just chock full of confusing, conflicting information - and honestly I think that is a big reason why people are attracted to places like this to ask these questions. I think maybe the disconnect here is that they didn't just open their web browsers and magically have it go to TPF, they had to google to find this place too.

why cant you learn the basics here? Quite a lot of "information sites" on the internet are little more than peoples blogs and websites trying to get you to buy their "tutorials". I can totally understand why people look a few of those sites and then don't want to deal with them.
people want new photographers to do their own research before coming here and asking stuff, but then chastise them when they quote Ken Rockwell.

Well not only that but when you exchange information with someone on a message base you get a much better sense of that person than simply reading something they wrote for the masses. I think for folks who are just starting out and especially those who are trying to make a decision on a relatively large purchase they want to "gauge" the advice their getting by talking to and being able to directly ask questions of the people they are getting that advice from - at least that would make a certain amount of sense to me personally.

 

[sm4him]

I think that if someone has a problem or reads something online (or picks up some info elsewhere) and finds that in practice it didn't work out, and comes to TPF and asks what they're doing wrong, that's one thing. Lazy Herberts who can't be bothered to try, try again before looking for help is quite another. This is how I read the spirit of the original post, and don't think this is negative or hostile towards newcomers.

just out of curiosity...
how is coming to a photography forum, starting a thread "which is the better lens, X or Y", and reading the opinions of the people that respond any different than going to Google, typing in "which is the better lens, X or Y", and then reading the opinions of people whose blogs and reviews came up first in the search engine?

given the amount of differing opinions on a lot of photographic topics (lenses, techniques, processing) and the massive amount of those differing opinions that a search engine will spit out in the form of blogs, review sites, magazine articles, etc etc, why is anyone here surprised that someone new to photography would be totally overwhelmed by Google's information overload and think coming to a photography forum to ask those questions would be a better idea?

What surprised me, is that instead of that being taken into consideration, beginner photographers coming here to start learning are automatically labeled as lazy and/or stupid for not finding that information somewhere else.

^Exactly. To me, it is not NECESSARILY just automatically lazy or stupid to decide to ask your question on a photography forum instead of googling it first. It's just a different way of finding information.
This is not a high school term paper we're talking about, where perhaps it IS important to "look it up yourself."

Here's the way I think of it. Let's say I'm trying to decide which lens to buy--or maybe I'm just trying to understand this Exposure Triangle concept. I have at my disposal the Internet, with its seemingly endless supply of information. That's great, and as one who used to have to dig through ACTUAL books for that kind of information, I heartily applaud its use.
BUT, wait! Let's say that as I sit at my computer, googling "Exposure Triangle," there ALSO happens to be, in the building right NEXT to me, a gathering of photographers. Some new photographers, some really experienced ones, but quite a few of them.

Which resource am *I* going to turn to FIRST? Well, call me lazy, but I am going to take my hand OFF the mouse, and walk next door to ask my question of actual, real photographers, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Because I *know* that one of them is going to have the experience and knowledge to help me figure out what I want to know&#8230;and THEN maybe some of the stuff I googled will make more sense.
To me, TPF is just such a gathering, and it is neither lazy nor ignorant to come knock on our door first.

 

[Derrel]

pixmedic,
Whoa,whoa,whoa! Slow ya roll, playa...you're going wayyyy too heavy on the logic and the rational thinking and the common sense here! Stop making so much sense! Your reasonable way of looking at this whole forum thing is starting to make me think you're seeing this the way it oughtta' be looked at in the real world of 2013--and that scares me, bro! Scares me big time, down to the core!

 

[limr]

This discussion is setting up a false dichotomy: Google vs Forum. We're talking about where people go for The Answer, when in fact that does not exist. When it comes to very simple definitions, perhaps, and for that I suppose it doesn't really matter where you get the answer from. Personally, I like to read my answers so I look for books or explanations before I resort to asking someone, either in real life or on a forum. Others are the opposite. Whatever - it's about learning styles.

But when it comes to more subjective issues, The Answer is really a conglomerate of information from various sources. I think one problem is that many people don't know this. They think The Answer comes from a holy book or a guru. They want to look in one place and be done. What they should be doing is looking in many places, pooling the information, evaluating it. I fear this second skill is becoming more and more rare.

When people first come to this site with a seemingly ill-informed basic question, it's possible this is their first stop to find information, but it's also possible that this is only one source of their information that they will be then pooling and analyzing. Sometimes the OP will explain what they've already done or read or learned, and then ask about the problem that has stumped them. Other times, it's unclear what the person has already done to find the answer. Perhaps their only real 'sin' is not knowing how to express themselves clearly in writing.

When the question just seems too stupid to believe, my version of "giving the benefit of the doubt" is keeping my hands off the keyboard except to click on another thread or tab.

 

[terri]

When the question just seems too stupid to believe, my version of "giving the benefit of the doubt" is keeping my hands off the keyboard except to click on another thread or tab.

And this is all that you have to do around here. Help when you can, move along when you can't or don't wish to. Perfect response! :heart:

Like I said earlier, and is at the heart of this whole issue: Just.Be.Nice! - however you may feel towards other members, complete newbs or experienced pros.

 

[peter27]

Answering every question, without expecting the new person to do some work, is actually detrimental as it keeps them from actually developing the skills to proceed themselves on anything.( ...............) we should be teaching people how to grow rather than hand-feeding them every morsel and keeping them infants



Learner independence is the name of the game, always.


Edit: The bold print is from Lew's original post. I felt I should point this out just so that the Herberts too lazy to read through the entire thread know.

 

[pgriz]

<snip> They think The Answer comes from a holy book or a guru. They want to look in one place and be done. <snip> .

We have The ANSWER. I am prepared to bless you with it. But since free advice has no value, and I really, really want you to get the full value, I will accept donation by Visa, Mastercard or Amex. The keys to the ANSWER can be yours for only $1999.99 plus handling fee of $56.44 and applicable taxes. The ANSWER will be delivered to you in five business days, by UPS ground transport in a box 2'x2'x2'. To make sure that the right ANSWER is shipped to you, please check that you have asked the right QUESTION. If you have not asked the right QUESTION, I take no responsibility for your not being able to use the ANSWER. I furthermore take no responsibility for the uses that you put the ANSWER to. Also, do not be misled by the simplicity of the ANSWER. It has been distilled to its present form after much effort, removing the non-essential and the irrelevant. If the use of the ANSWER is not to your satisfaction, you may have to look within to see what flaw prevents you from fully utilizing the ANSWER in your life.











:mrgreen:

 

[amolitor]

When I feel it appropriate, I answer a question with more questions.

There seems to be a false assumption that the choices are: Hound the newb off the internet OR spoon feed the newb answers until it dies of fatness.

 

[limr]

We all know The Answer is 42.