Opinion of Nikon in general

[robbins.photo]

As a Canon guy I'm not going to diss Nikon however there is one thing about Nikon stuff that has long puzzled me. For some reason there always seems to be more used Nikon gear for sale than Canon gear. I first noticed this when I was looking for a used Sigma lens a few years ago. Everywhere I went, fredmiranda, KEH, bhphoto, craigslist, ebay, etc. it seemed there were always Nikons available but no Canons. Anyway, before I wrote this I just did a little survey of used gear. At KEH I found 47 Canon bodies and 59 Nikon bodies. There were 83 Canon lenses and 121 Nikon lenses of all types. At bhphoto there were 57 used Canon cameras and 64 used Nikon cameras. Here on the TPF there are 2 Canon items for sale and 14 Nikon items.

I don't know what this means. Maybe Nikon sells a lot more cameras than Canon. Maybe Nikon owners are more dissatisfied with their gear than Canon owners. Or, it could mean something else. In any event, Nikon lovers have a much wider selection of used stuff to choose from. I just think it's a bit odd. Then too, some folks think I'm a bit odd.

... Or maybe Nikon users are so satisfied with their gear that they can't resist but to buy new stuff all the time - and to fit it all in their collection/afford it, they're forced to sell their old stuff.

Perhaps. As for me, I only buy a new camera when the new one offers a significant advantage over the one I'm currently using. I bought the 7D because the 50D couldn't shoot video and the 7D could. I bought the 6D because it is substantially better in low light than the 7D. I only buy a new lens when it fills a specific need that I've identified. It seems unusual, to me at least, and irrational to do otherwise. Not to mention financially unwise.

Ok, well I'm pretty much the same way - I had a d5100, I ended up getting a D5200. Takes better pictures, higher MP sensor lets me crop more which is great for the sort of photography I do, shoots a little faster which is also good for the types of pictures I take, all in all a very good upgrade. Even better when you consider I didn't actually spend any money on it. I was actually looking at upgrading to the 7100, just sort of fell into the d5200 by accident.

But the "upgrade for advantage" thing isn't specific to people who buy one brand of camera or another, so I guess I'm a little lost when it comes to this response. A lot of folks will start with an entry level camera like the 3200, use it for a while, realize they want some more advanced features and upgrade. Happens all the time. I'm sure it happens on the Canon side of the fence too. The point of my posting is that truthfully we have no idea why sometimes you'll see more used canon gear for sale than nikon or vice versa.

 

[Derrel]

Perhaps. As for me, I only buy a new camera when the new one offers a significant advantage over the one I'm currently using. I bought the 7D because the 50D couldn't shoot video and the 7D could. I bought the 6D because it is substantially better in low light than the 7D. I only buy a new lens when it fills a specific need that I've identified. It seems unusual, to me at least, and irrational to do otherwise. Not to mention financially unwise.

Well, there you go...Canon did not update its APS-C sensor cameras since the 7D came out in 2009...they're still using the same, tired, outdated sensor in basically all of their APS-C line. THey added approximately 2 million focus-detect pixels in the 70D, but the entire Digital Rebel and XXD line has used the same .50 micron sensor tech and the same sensor that was current back in early 2008, when they were designing the 7D. SInce then it's been basically a flat performance line for model after model after model after model after model after model in Canon's crop-body cameras...so Canoin users have had no real reason to upgrade or buy new cameras for the past half of a decade.

The only area Canon has made any improvement in has been in their full-frame models. Canon still clings to its home-brewed sensor technology though, while Sony and Toshiba have pulled far ahead, and spent billions of Yen to upgrade their sensor fabrication plants and technology.

And you wonder why Canon users are not "upgrading"? There has been NO REAL UPGRADE path for the majority, the APS-C sensor crowd, since 2009...same old chit, only with a new model number on it,iteration after iteration after iteration... the only Canon users who have been able to benefit have been those who have the money to go full-frame...

 

[JacaRanda]

... Or maybe Nikon users are so satisfied with their gear that they can't resist but to buy new stuff all the time - and to fit it all in their collection/afford it, they're forced to sell their old stuff.

just sort of fell into the d5200 by accident.

Damned Nikonians leaving shtuff in the way. You must be unbalanced too. Welcome to the club :lmao:

 

[grafxman]

Perhaps. As for me, I only buy a new camera when the new one offers a significant advantage over the one I'm currently using. I bought the 7D because the 50D couldn't shoot video and the 7D could. I bought the 6D because it is substantially better in low light than the 7D. I only buy a new lens when it fills a specific need that I've identified. It seems unusual, to me at least, and irrational to do otherwise. Not to mention financially unwise.

Well, there you go...Canon did not update its APS-C sensor cameras since the 7D came out in 2009...they're still using the same, tired, outdated sensor in basically all of their APS-C line. THey added approximately 2 million focus-detect pixels in the 70D, but the entire Digital Rebel and XXD line has used the same .50 micron sensor tech and the same sensor that was current back in early 2008, when they were designing the 7D. SInce then it's been basically a flat performance line for model after model after model after model after model after model in Canon's crop-body cameras...so Canoin users have had no real reason to upgrade or buy new cameras for the past half of a decade.

The only area Canon has made any improvement in has been in their full-frame models. Canon still clings to its home-brewed sensor technology though, while Sony and Toshiba have pulled far ahead, and spent billions of Yen to upgrade their sensor fabrication plants and technology.

And you wonder why Canon users are not "upgrading"? There has been NO REAL UPGRADE path for the majority, the APS-C sensor crowd, since 2009...same old chit, only with a new model number on it,iteration after iteration after iteration... the only Canon users who have been able to benefit have been those who have the money to go full-frame...

I'll give you credit for knowing something I don't. However several months ago I posted a link to a videomaker article about Canon's extremely sensitive new sensor. The article link is dead now but google's cache still has it. Here's an excerpt:

Back in March Canon announced that they had developed a “high sensitivity” 35mm full-frame CMOS sensor built for one purpose, shooting video. The sensor features pixels measuring 19 microns square in size. While this may not sound very large, it’s actually more than 7.5-times the surface area of the pixels on the CMOS sensor you’ll find in the top-of-the-line EOS-1D X and other digital SLR cameras. In addition, the sensor's pixels and readout circuitry employ new technologies that reduce noise, which tends to increase as pixel size increases. Utilizing these technologies, the sensor makes it possible to shoot clearly visible video in dimly lit environments with as little as 0.03 lux of illumination (about the brightness of a crescent moon). This initial announcement was accompanied by some pretty impressive comparison tests. -

Here's a link to the google cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Canon's Ridiculously Sensitive CMOS Sensor | Videomaker.com

A video camera with this sensor was used to record color video of fireflies at 30 frames in .01 lux of light. So Canon hasn't been goofing off. They just haven't got the technology down to the user yet.

 

[robbins.photo]

just sort of fell into the d5200 by accident.

Damned Nikonians leaving shtuff in the way. You must be unbalanced too. Welcome to the club :lmao:

Woohoo! I'm in a club! Is there like a secret handshake deal? Lol

 

[Derrel]

Yes, I recall seeing that ultra-large pixel video sensor Canon had developed. Of course, it's gone exactly nowhere, and done nothing for anybody, but it did make the web for a week or two before fading away to nothingness.

The way I see it, a camera maker can make and sell its customers the best cameras it possibly can by procuring the BEST-possible sensors available, like Nikon and Pentax are doing, or a camera maker can use outdated technology in an effort to keep keep profits high for itself, and force its users to settle for second-rate performance. That's what Canon has been doing since 2009 with its entire APS-C lineup. They are still in the "Pentium 4" frame of mind, meaning "Good enough for our users." Profits over performance. "Good enough".

 

[grafxman]

Yes, I recall seeing that ultra-large pixel video sensor Canon had developed. Of course, it's gone exactly nowhere, and done nothing for anybody, but it did make the web for a week or two before fading away to nothingness.

The way I see it, a camera maker can make and sell its customers the best cameras it possibly can by procuring the BEST-possible sensors available, like Nikon and Pentax are doing, or a camera maker can use outdated technology in an effort to keep keep profits high for itself, and force its users to settle for second-rate performance. That's what Canon has been doing since 2009 with its entire APS-C lineup. They are still in the "Pentium 4" frame of mind, meaning "Good enough for our users." Profits over performance. "Good enough".

Derrel, I seriously doubt that anyone using a 70D or 7D feel as if they're using a second rate camera. In fact they seem to like them well enough to hold on to them instead of constantly selling them and trading them around like I've already shown that many Nikon users are doing a lot of with their gear. Also, I'm absolutely certain that neither you or probably anyone else here has a clue as to what Canon's "frame of mind" is or Nikon's either for that matter. Since you think Pentax sensors are the best available why don't you use a Pentax instead of a Nikon? It would give you opportunity to sell and trade that Nikon gear some more.

 

[JacaRanda]

Damned Nikonians leaving shtuff in the way. You must be unbalanced too. Welcome to the club :lmao:

Woohoo! I'm in a club! Is there like a secret handshake deal? Lol

It's not really a secret, but it goes something like this Only with that better sensor for video that Canon won't let us use. A**holes.

 

[robbins.photo]

Yes, I recall seeing that ultra-large pixel video sensor Canon had developed. Of course, it's gone exactly nowhere, and done nothing for anybody, but it did make the web for a week or two before fading away to nothingness.

The way I see it, a camera maker can make and sell its customers the best cameras it possibly can by procuring the BEST-possible sensors available, like Nikon and Pentax are doing, or a camera maker can use outdated technology in an effort to keep keep profits high for itself, and force its users to settle for second-rate performance. That's what Canon has been doing since 2009 with its entire APS-C lineup. They are still in the "Pentium 4" frame of mind, meaning "Good enough for our users." Profits over performance. "Good enough".

Derrel, I seriously doubt that anyone using a 70D or 7D feel as if they're using a second rate camera. In fact they seem to like them well enough to hold on to them instead of constantly selling them and trading them around like I've already shown that many Nikon users are doing a lot of with their gear. Also, I'm absolutely certain that neither you or probably anyone else here has a clue as to what Canon's "frame of mind" is or Nikon's either for that matter. Since you think Pentax sensors are the best available why don't you use a Pentax instead of a Nikon? It would give you opportunity to sell and trade that Nikon gear some more.

Ok, well as a general rule I tend to avoid this topic of conversation, however did you happen to notice that the two cameras you mentioned? First, the 70d - lets see, it's the newest release in the APS-C sensor line up for Canon and costs over $1000. The 7D? Also well over $1000. Even though both of these cameras cost over twice what my Nikon D5200 costs, neither can match it for either low light performance or image quality.

As Derrel mentioned, all of the other cameras Canon makes that are in the less than $1000 use essentially the same sensor. So if you own say an older T2I you might as well hang onto it until you can afford a 70d or a 7d or some other $1000 plus camera because your not going to see any difference between the images you take with a T2I and the images you take with a 50d, or a 60d, etc.

So rather than shoveling snark about how you anecdotally claim that Nikon users are selling off their equipment in droves maybe you should stop and consider the fact that when I owned the 16 mp D5100 I had several options I could upgrade to that cost less than $1000 and would actually improve my image quality significantly. If I owned a T2I I've got the 7D, the 70D or I really need to pull out my wallet and go full frame.

So, that having been said, I really do understand why some folks like Canon and stick with it, and there are other reasons why one might go from a T2I to a 50d or 60d. But image quality and lowlight peformance will stay pretty much the same, which frankly doesn't really appeal to me personally. There are some features that Canon offers that might really suit someones needs well. But they really don't suit my needs as well as Nikon, so I went Nikon.

So maybe you can just like and enjoy your Canon, you can let me enjoy my Nikon, and we can just give this whole thing a rest.

 

[robbins.photo]

Woohoo! I'm in a club! Is there like a secret handshake deal? Lol

It's not really a secret, but it goes something like this - Only with that better sensor for video that Canon won't let us use. A**holes.

Umm.. hmm.. ok, so is there another version for those of us with zero rhythm? Lol

 

[Derrel]

Derrel, I seriously doubt that anyone using a 70D or 7D feel as if they're using a second rate camera. In fact they seem to like them well enough to hold on to them instead of constantly selling them and trading them around like I've already shown that many Nikon users are doing a lot of with their gear. Also, I'm absolutely certain that neither you or probably anyone else here has a clue as to what Canon's "frame of mind" is or Nikon's either for that matter. Since you think Pentax sensors are the best available why don't you use a Pentax instead of a Nikon? It would give you opportunity to sell and trade that Nikon gear some more.

Oh, sorry, my bad...I should have said, "Ninety-fifth rated" for the 70D,


and "One hundred and thirteenth-rated," for the Canon 7D. My bad, my bad. I meant second rate in a kind sort of way, though.


You "do know" that Pentax cameras are made using the same sensors that Nikon is "also buying" from Sony, right?? And that Canon's highest-rated camera is 25th in sensor performance?

Canon's frame of mind is clearly that of a company that's lagging behind behind a whole slug of Nikon, Sony, and Pentax cameras, all of which user newer, better, higher-perfoming sensors made on newer, better, more-advanced sensor manufacturing machinery.

Canon has photocopiers and calculators and flatbed scanners to make, office machines to produce, and despite millions of dollars in R&D in the imaging division spent for the last five years, they've been unable to see their way clear to migrate their sensor fabrication to the modern-era with the .19 micron process that Sony and Toshiba have invested in. Canon uses OLD technology to make its sensors. Period. Outdated, old-fashioned, already-payed for machinery that they have willingly not updated. This is why the BEST that Canon can do is its 1Dx, which scores a DxO mark sensor performance rating of 82 points, which places their BEST camera at 25th place, tied with the Nikon D3300, which also scores 82.

 

[grafxman]

I think there's quite a bit more to a camera than just it's sensor. I'm happy with my Canons. I know you'll stay happy with your Nikons. But know this Derrel, if I thought that Nikons were significantly better than Canons I would go to Nikons. I would have Sigma convert my lenses to Nikon. But I just don't see it. I've seen posts here about people dumping their Nikons for Canons. I seen posts here about people having to wet swab their Nikons frequently to avoid oil collecting dirt. Like I said, there's a lot more to a camera than just it's sensor.

 

[robbins.photo]

I think there's quite a bit more to a camera than just it's sensor. I'm happy with my Canons. I know you'll stay happy with your Nikons. But know this Derrel, if I thought that Nikons were significantly better than Canons I would go to Nikons. I would have Sigma convert my lenses to Nikon. But I just don't see it. I've seen posts here about people dumping their Nikons for Canons. I seen posts here about people having to wet swab their Nikons frequently to avoid oil collecting dirt. Like I said, there's a lot more to a camera than just it's sensor.

Sadly then I think it's safe to say you only see what you wish to see. I've seen plenty of posts by Canon users selling there gear. Maybe they are switching brands, maybe they are just upgrading to newer equipment, etc. I've also seen plenty of posts by canon folks who need to clean their sensor, or are having some sort of issue. So what. Doesn't mean that Canon builds a bad or unreliable camera. For me to try and state such would be intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

But hey, don't take my word for it. If your premise is since you see a lot of Nikon gear for sale Nikon's must be junk, just head over to ebay and type in the word Canon. Once you do I fully expect you to place your Canon camera up for sale immediately, I mean obviously if there is that much Canon gear for sale it must be crap right? Or maybe at least be honest enough to admit that your premise is frankly ridiculous.

You know, I have no problem with people who buy and shoot canon. I also have no problem with people who prefer Pentax, or Sony. Each brand has it's own particular set of advantages and combination of feature sets that make them attractive to various people for various reasons. But what I do take issue with is people who for some strange reason seem to think they need to justify their preference by denigrating someone elses preference, particularly using such a ridiculous and unsupportable premise.

 

[grafxman]

I've been making observations, not denigrating anything. It wasn't me who initially posted about having to frequently wet swab a Nikon. I deliberately didn't search ebay because I know many posts there are from Hong Kong and various other places. That's why I looked at TPF, KEH, and BHPhoto. If you had looked where I did you would discover that my count was accurate. Not once did I ever say anywhere that Nikon gear is junk. In fact my OBSERVATION is that Derrel has been trying to persuade me that APSC Canons are all junk because of their sensors. I have no need whatsoever to justify my choice of camera manufacturer anymore than anybody else does. I have no premise about anything. I observe and try to see what's what then make my decisions. I don't have a bad opinion of Nikons. I'm sure they're fine cameras. Furthermore, as I said previously, if I thought Nikons were significantly better than Canons I would switch. But I don't think that so I won't switch. If you think I'm some sort of starry eyed Canon lover then you should take a look at my lens collection.

 

[robbins.photo]

I've been making observations, not denigrating anything. It wasn't me who initially posted about having to frequently wet swab a Nikon. I deliberately didn't search ebay because I know many posts there are from Hong Kong and various other places. That's why I looked at TPF, KEH, and BHPhoto. If you had looked where I did you would discover that my count was accurate. Not once did I ever say anywhere that Nikon gear is junk. In fact my OBSERVATION is that Derrel has been trying to persuade me that APSC Canons are all junk because of their sensors. I have no need whatsoever to justify my choice of camera manufacturer anymore than anybody else does. I have no premise about anything. I observe and try to see what's what then make my decisions. I don't have a bad opinion of Nikons. I'm sure they're fine cameras. Furthermore, as I said previously, if I thought Nikons were significantly better than Canons I would switch. But I don't think that so I won't switch. If you think I'm some sort of starry eyed Canon lover then you should take a look at my lens collection.

The number of used Nikons for sale on 3 websites when compared to the number of Canon's is totally meaningless. You choose to believe that people are selling their Nikon gear because they are abandoning Nikon for other brands. That's what you choose to see. Not what is actually there or supported by actual fact. You choose to see the posts about people who need to clean their sensor when the camera is a Nikon. You apparently choose to ignore any problem whatsoever reported by any Canon user. This makes your observations, quite frankly, worthless. Because you only choose to observe that which you wish to see.

As such whether you choose to acknowledge that fact that you are way out in left field here or not is also meaningless. I have no idea if you are a starry eyed canon lover or not, and frankly it hardly matters. It is obvious that you have some form of agenda, otherwise you wouldn't continue to cling to such a ridiculous premise when it is so demonstrably false. One thing that is certain, one cannot reason with unreasonable people. As such we're pretty much done here.