Second Photog Shooter Copyright Laws

[radosb1920]

I have been second shooting for a local wedding studio in NY for almost a year. He hires me as a contracted worker, I am not an employee of his company. The pictures I took for him came out great so I used those photos on my own website to promote my photography. They are NOT for sale, their only purpose is to promote my own talent so that someone will hire me. Now he is demanding that I take those photos off my website because they are "his copyrighted pictures"...I DID NOT SIGN A THING. I have all original files, with all EXIF data pointing to my equipment and name. For a while I respected his demands, but he screwed me out of 4 jobs so the respect is gone. Do I take these pictures down? If he tries suing (which I should hope not) will they stand in court?

 

[mjhoward]

Im pretty sure they belong to him since that is what you were paid by him to do. I cant post up the source code to software that I developed when I was paid by someone else to develop it.

 

[Studio7Four]

I assume that you signed contracts for those weddings you acted as second shooter - what did they say about copyright ownership? In the absence of a contract yielding those rights to him I believe this situation is no different from any client hiring you to shoot. You own the copyright to those images unless explicitly transferred. To expand upon this logic, if the primary photographer owns the copyright because he paid the secondary shooter, then in fact the bride and groom would own the copyright because they paid the primary. I don't think there's anyone on this forum who would suggest that that is the case. (Especially for wedding photos, the photographer may allow the couple to have practically unlimited reproduction rights, but this is also not a yielding of the copyright.)

The difference with the software example, mjhoward, is that I'm willing to bet that you signed either an employment agreement (when you were hired on as an employee of a company) or a contract (if you work as an independent contractor) that explicitly states something along the lines of "all intellectual property developed on Company time/using Company resources become the product of the Company." I work as a mechanical engineer and I've had to sign such employment agreements at each company I've worked for.

 

[radosb1920]

I did not sign anything. I just showed up the days that he needed me, took pictures, gave him my card to extract the photos for use however way he seemed fit (albums, proofs, advertising, whatever he wanted to do). He would then return the card to me untouched with the photos still on the card.

 

[Rosshole]

Let him sue you, unless it isn't worth the bad "press", or reputation you may receive from telling him to piss off.

 

[Studio7Four]

I did not sign anything.

I don't think he has a leg to stand on.

I just showed up the days that he needed me, took pictures, gave him my card to extract the photos for use however way he seemed fit (albums, proofs, advertising, whatever he wanted to do). He would then return the card to me untouched with the photos still on the card.

If he were that concerned about "his" copyright he would have erased the images from your card when he extracted them. (And this confirms that the images you are using are either straight-out-of-camera or with your processing, so I don't see how he can put a claim to them.) It sounds to me like he is a bit insecure and can't handle competition so he's trying to put hurdles in your way.

 

[KmH]

How can he hire you as a contracted worker, if you don't sign a contract.

I DID NOT SIGN A THING.

Go to www.copyright.gov and search for the rules that define "work-for-hire".

Based on what you have stated and my understanding of "work-for-hire", you own the copyrights to all the images you made, and he cannot sell images you made without your permission. Further, he can't use your images for his self-publishing or self-promotion without your permission.

Unfortunately, until you register your copyrights with the US Copyright Office you cannot do much legally. Even then there is a limited window, 3 months.

Since you never signed any documentation, you would even have trouble prevaling in civil court persuing breach of contract.

I continue to be totally amazed at the number of working photographers that seem to be totally clueless about copyright, which is the only tangible asset they have to sell, and the most basic of business concepts, like having a contract.

Your next step should be to schedule a consultation with an attorney versed in intellectual property law. If someone uses your photo without your permission, don’t sit on your copyright claim.

 

[IgsEMT]

Well look (or read)....
Don't know about your background but based on your Q you haven't been in the business long enough.
First of all, there's such thing called professional courteous where you as a newbee should have asked if you were allowed to use HIS jobs for your demo purposes.
Second, clients allow HIM (studio owner) to use images for publicity purposes.
So overall - they aren't yours even if you shot the whole job - think film: you shoot it, deliver it to studio owner and never see the job again unless you ask to see the prints.
Fact that you guys got into a battle doesn't help the situation, but you should take them down. If I'd put another photog's pics on my site W/O asking and he/she found out about it, I'd be blacklisted for studios in the area even if shot the jobs free, all because you broke an unspoken agreement. Hence, it shows that you haven't been in the business long enough.
His mistake was, taking in to account your lack of knowledge and telling you NOT to use them and rather giving you HIS cards to shoot on.

In this business people get screwed all the time but self respect and honesty will get you a long way. Business isn't what it used to be, clients don't care about work that goes into it as can be seen here so least you can do, is respect the business, the laws (guidelines), let it be a lesson to you and move on.

Good Luck

 

[Christie Photo]

He won't sue. And he shouldn't have to. Of course he has a right to sell the images.

Let's for just a moment forget about law. Let's talk about what's reasonable. I have to believe that you went and shot with him knowing full well he would offer the images for sale right along with the ones he made personally.

I'm making a presumption here... did he not pay you for the job?

Any image made under the direction of, or the employ of another... well you can't really claim it as yours. It simply isn't a honest assertion. I wouldn't think you believe it is. He asked you to help him, you did, he paid you, you give him the images. Did you really expect it would be any different?

As for you using the images for self-promotion... I think you should respect his wishes. It doesn't matter if he gives you any more work or not. What matters is who you are and how you behave. He shot himself in the foot. Why not take the high road and move on?

I've never had a written contract with any of my helpers. We simply discuss these sort of things and come to an agreement. Of course I'm gonna sell his work. What else would be the point? I try to be fair. I do explicitly express that he can use the images for self promotion. At the same time, I know he wouldn't represent any work he did under my direct supervision as his own. This part we didn't discuss, but I know him to be a man of integrity.

-Pete

 

[modlife]

...I do explicitly express that he can use the images for self promotion. At the same time, I know he wouldn't represent any work he did under my direct supervision as his own. This part we didn't discuss, but I know him to be a man of integrity.

-Pete

Pete - it sounds like you have a good, ethical head on your shoulders. I agree with everything up until the part about your second having the integrity to not use the photos you explicitly said he could just a few words prior, for self-promotion. I'm not with you on that. If I pay a second without a contract I credit them on the site, lift them up as the shooter and EXPECT them to use the work to self-promote.

Then again, I am a business man and ALWAYS get a contract.

 

[Christie Photo]

I agree with everything up until the part about your second having the integrity to not use the photos you explicitly said he could just a few words prior,...

I suppose I wasn't quite clear. What I mean is: if I put the camera on the tripod, set the exposure, and have him trip the shutter while I'm posing... OR... if I direct him to grab his wide lens, jump in the limo and do some program mode spray-n-pray... well, that's not really his work.

But if I... well.... send him after the groom and tell him to get some stuff with the best man, then that's HIS work.

Like I said... the fellow who helps me now is a level-headed, reasonable guy. He knows what's his work and what's mine. So do I.

-Pete

 

[Christie Photo]

Then again, I am a business man and ALWAYS get a contract.

I'm a business man too. When I said we discuss things and come to an agreement... that's a contract too. I know... it's not in writing, but it is a contract. And if he's not a man of his word, his signature is just as worthless.

-Pete

 

[IgsEMT]

And if he's not a man of his word, his signature is just as worthless.

I LOVE THAT LINE!!! :thumbup:

 

[radosb1920]

Thanks for all the input everyone.
I know this is business and I should be choosing my actions with integrity, but I think it is noteworthy to stress that he acted unprofessionally with me 3 seperate times. He gave me a list of days that he needed me, I made those days available to help him and made sure i didn't book anything those days. Each time I would call him a few days before to gather some info, and all three times he said he didn't need me he got another shooter, but he would never even give a courtesy call to let me know. So yes @IgsEMT, integrity is an issue here, but there should be some courtesy towards the employee as well. I may be unexperienced in this business, but I know as a boss of another business, that common courtesy towards your employees goes a long long way. And as for my experience with photography, i think my pictures speak for themselves photography . All of my work is my own creative take, he gave me free reign to get whatever shot I want and he barely taught me anything. You all must know, it is difficult to generate business without a portfolio (especially in this business climate). About 65% of my wedding portfolio was shot while working for him and without those shots it will be really difficult for me to promote myself and grow...Im pretty sure he is just seeing me as competition and wants to put a few obstacles in my way.

 

[IgsEMT]

Building portfolio is difficult, however, today it is MUCH easier then 10yrs ago.
Think 10yrs from now, you're hiring someone to work for you and they use YOUR job for self promotion - book a 5k contract b/c you were the one who told them where to stand, ON YOUR JOB, how to pose, ON YOUR JOB and B&G were the most delightful couple... how would you feel about it? or better yet, how would YOUR B&G feel IF they were to find out - go to this newbee and order prints for half price, let's say, then you would charge. He's sell it b/c wants own clients and want to make extra $.
It seems that you made out your mind already before posting here. Pretty much everyone told you to take it down and yet you're saying how much of a jerk he is. He screwed you - fine, you feel pissed/hurt- fine, He is a jerk - FINE (by the way who is he, just want to make sure I don't work for the same jerk ) but you're better then that, I hope.