What to charge?? - Starting out

[CCericola]

Hi SayGee,

I understand your excitement but the teachers are giving you these opportunities because you are a parent there and The teacher cannot hire you. They can not hire you because you are not a registered business ( be it sole proprietor or LLC or INC, whatever), you do not have liability insurance, you are not certified (this may or may not come into play) and you have not been approved by committee ( be it the principal, PTO or school board)

1. Registered. Not a hard thing to do. Each state has different laws but they are pretty easy to find out.
2. Taxes. Again, there is a lot of info out there to be had. Like it or not you can't do this tax free.
3. Insurance. What if you drop your camera on a kid or the kid does something to show off for the camera and gets hurt. The school doesn't care if you have equipment insurance. They could care less. They do require liability insurance. In fact THEIR insurance company requires you to have it as well. Insurance is a no brainer. Do you really want to tell your child they can't live in their house anymore because mommy screwed up and lost the house to pay the lawsuit she just lost? (extreme case but not too far off)
4. Certification. Yup school photographers have it. Whether you are doing the yearbook pics, sports pics, candids at a party etc... SOME schools require that you be certified with the PSPA (PSPA Home Page) I am not certified so there are some jobs I know I cannot get.
5. The dreaded committee. All of what is required for a teacher or school to hire someone is available to the public. So you know exactly if you qualify to be hired by the school. That being said they still might not be able to hire you. Some school photography companies put a clause in their 3-5 year contract with a school that the school CANNOT hire anyone else to do ANY kind of photography. That doesn't stop them from having say, an aspiring parent with a camera do it for free. But as soon as money is involved BAM. The school is in violation of their contract and all HECK breaks loose.

So once you become a business, get all your ducks in a row. You are now ready to calculate how much to charge. You take a gamble and say I need x amount of money. My goal is to book N amount of jobs. Each job will need to bring in Y amount of money. So calculate everything out and go from there.

There ABSOLUTELY NO way for us to tell you what to charge. It is just plain Impossible for anyone here to give you the correct answer. I know it is a lot to think about and very overwhelming. But it is a reality you have to deal with if you want to be in business for yourself. Be it as a photographer, a restauranteur, a clothing boutique, etc...

If you really are passionate about photography save up, apply for business loans and do it the right way. The smart way. Not just for you , but for your family. In 5-10years we might be laughing about this post because you became the premier photographer in your area and other people are coming to you offering you tons of money to buy your book of business. ( happened to my former employer so, yes, it can happen)

Be excited, be passionate. Just don't be stupid.

 

[tirediron]

...In other words figure out your cost basis. Figure out how much money you want to make. Plan accordingly. Read about how to calculate your costs accurately. Plan accordingly.Good luck.

While all of JAC's advice is good, this ^^ is the critical piece that you need to be clear on.

 

[imagemaker46]

Check with other established photographers in your area, (via websites is easier) determine if you have the same years of experience, skills etc and then charge what you think you are worth. CCericola is quite right in what was written. Just having a dollar figure on what to charge for a print won't make you a successful photographer without knowing what the photo market is like in your area.

 

[SayGee]

Incredibly grateful for such a detailed and trmendously useful reply, CC (and am grateful for the other posts as well). Simply, I've volunteered even when they weren't necessarily even looking for anyone and yes, now I'm being asked. *Your description of the circumstances is fairly accurate. I've already been speaking with the PTO, principal and even the district - but holding off on formal talks until I'm truly up and running. In the meantime, though, any suggestion as to how I should go about providing the images I've already taken and am about to take?? Are you suggesting I'm putting myself at risk by setting up a presence on Zenfolio (or similar)?

Hi SayGee,I understand your excitement but the teachers are giving you these opportunities because you are a parent there and The teacher cannot hire you. They can not hire you because you are not a registered business ( be it sole proprietor or LLC or INC, whatever), you do not have liability insurance, you are not certified (this may or may not come into play) and you have not been approved by committee ( be it the principal, PTO or school board)1. Registered. Not a hard thing to do. Each state has different laws but they are pretty easy to find out. 2. Taxes. Again, there is a lot of info out there to be had. Like it or not you can't do this tax free. 3. Insurance. What if you drop your camera on a kid or the kid does something to show off for the camera and gets hurt. The school doesn't care if you have equipment insurance. They could care less. They do require liability insurance. In fact THEIR insurance company requires you to have it as well. Insurance is a no brainer. Do you really want to tell your child they can't live in their house anymore because mommy screwed up and lost the house to pay the lawsuit she just lost? (extreme case but not too far off)4. Certification. Yup school photographers have it. Whether you are doing the yearbook pics, sports pics, candids at a party etc... SOME schools require that you be certified with the PSPA (PSPA Home Page) I am not certified so there are some jobs I know I cannot get.5. The dreaded committee. All of what is required for a teacher or school to hire someone is available to the public. So you know exactly if you qualify to be hired by the school. That being said they still might not be able to hire you. Some school photography companies put a clause in their 3-5 year contract with a school that the school CANNOT hire anyone else to do ANY kind of photography. That doesn't stop them from having say, an aspiring parent with a camera do it for free. But as soon as money is involved BAM. The school is in violation of their contract and all HECK breaks loose.So once you become a business, get all your ducks in a row. You are now ready to calculate how much to charge. You take a gamble and say I need x amount of money. My goal is to book N amount of jobs. Each job will need to bring in Y amount of money. So calculate everything out and go from there.There ABSOLUTELY NO way for us to tell you what to charge. It is just plain Impossible for anyone here to give you the correct answer. I know it is a lot to think about and very overwhelming. But it is a reality you have to deal with if you want to be in business for yourself. Be it as a photographer, a restauranteur, a clothing boutique, etc...If you really are passionate about photography save up, apply for business loans and do it the right way. The smart way. Not just for you , but for your family. In 5-10years we might be laughing about this post because you became the premier photographer in your area and other people are coming to you offering you tons of money to buy your book of business. ( happened to my former employer so, yes, it can happen)Be excited, be passionate. Just don't be stupid.

 

[SayGee]

You can post photos for critique, people dont need to sign a release for that. They only need to sign a release if you plan to sell the image via stock photography etc.

Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that.

I have a couple of my better shots that are of kids, but those particulr parents are adamant about Internet safety and their children and would not sign a release to allow me to use the photos my (w.i.p) online portfolio.

What you've said suggests I could use the images for anything other than a direct sale of that image - (but won't anyway now that I know the wishes of the parents).

I'd love if you were right about this, but I'm fairly certain you're not. So how is posting for critique okay, but my online portfolio or FB, etc isn't??

 

[KmH]

Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that.

Investigate the legal differences between a commercial use, and an editorial use.

I recommend the following book that covers both model/property release issues, among much else:
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things

When you put your images on the web, in a portfolio, in a catalog to promote yourself, or to make the photos available for sale or licensing, this form of self-publishiing is not considered a form of commercial use that requires a release from the subjects in your photos. (page 127).

I highly recommend you get qualified legal advice before you get much further along. In court, they don't care what urban legend, dead wrong legal information you took as gospel.

You clearly have a lot of homework yet to do.

 

[Kerbouchard]

You can post and use, just about any image you take either online for critique, or in your portfolio.

For your portfolio, you aren't implying endorsement. You are simply showing an example of your copyrighted art. As far as asking for critique, it's your art, you are entitled to share it with your peers to ask how to improve.

Now, if you take a picture of a bride, sell it to a dress manufacturer, and throw a caption under it implying the subject is endorsing the brand, you have a problem. On the flip side, when I shoot a wedding, some photos of the guests are a part of my portfolio, and all are offered to the bride, groom, family, etc for purchase. Obviously, we don't have everybody at the wedding sign a photo release...That would be nuts.

In any case, the use of photos gets a bit grey when there are recognizable trademarks in the image, when it's images on private property, or when you are at an event that you paid to get into that had T&C's on their website or the ticket.

Regardless, I shot a charity event recently and this is the pricing structure I gave them. Proceeds are going to St. Judes so I wanted to make sure there was money in there for the charity but I wasn't worried about getting paid.

Loose Prints:
4x5/4x6/5x7 $2.00
8x10/8x12 $6.00
16x20 $24.00

Options that are ready to hang.
A standout mounted to 1.5” foam 8x10 $40, 16x20 $80
Canvas on a 1.5” board mounted in a gallery wrap style 8x10 $70, 16x20 $110
Custom Framed, Matted, and Mounted 8x10 $60, 16x20 $140

I wanted to keep it simple, get lots of orders, and make some money for St. Jude. Worked out pretty well.

Now, on the other hand, I don't mind donating my time for this event, so I'm doing it for free, and everything goes to charity.

If I was trying to make money, I would have doubled or trippled a lot of the prices, got less orders, made more money, and had a lot less work.

If you're constantly busy or booked, you are probably charging too little.

 

[SayGee]

Thank you so much, Kerbouchard! I truly appreciate the price guide. I also appreciate your giving an actual answer, not just a book or article recommendation (which, btw, i appreciate those too - but not as the exclusive answer).

 

[shootermcgavin]

I've never done a school shoot and probably won't cuz it's not my thing but this is what I would do from a marketing/ease of business stand point to get a schools business and keep hassles low. As a service you do not have to charge sales tax, so if you charge them a fee to come in and shoot say for 4 hours you charge $750 or something and then you tell the school that they will make all proceeds off pictures ordered, then even Dads like me that think those pictures are the biggest waste of money won't feel so bad when it's for charity. I had a friend who recently did something like that with real estate and it was a huge success, he donated 1/2 of all sales to the high schools track team. I hear the sales tax thing come up a lot in this forum, to me it seems like a clump of wasted time I would try to work your way around it and offer a service rather than a good. Come tax time you will be a lot more bearable to be around.

 

[SayGee]

Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that.

Investigate the legal differences between a commercial use, and an editorial use.

I recommend the following book that covers both model/property release issues, among much else:
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things

When you put your images on the web, in a portfolio, in a catalog to promote yourself, or to make the photos available for sale or licensing, this form of self-publishiing is not considered a form of commercial use that requires a release from the subjects in your photos. (page 127).

I highly recommend you get qualified legal advice before you get much further along. In court, they don't care what urban legend, dead wrong legal information you took as gospel.

You clearly have a lot of homework yet to do.

KmH - Feel free to unleash your haughtiness regarding other issues, though you might want to tone it down a wee bit. But before you start preaching "gospel - the reader's digest version"; you also might want to consult your own attorney.

 

[dieselbear]

Wow, what a topic. I was in the same boat as you.
I just jumped out!!!!
I think i will be selfish and take my pics when i feel like it.
Forget this, i'm pretty sure it won't be fun for me if it becomes a hassle.

Great advice from everyone. It's a very interesting forum.
I've been lurking for a while

 

[Kerbouchard]

KMH is actually right this time...I took particular note of it because of how often he has been wrong about copyright and usage issues in the past. I'm glad that he seems to have finally gotten around to reading some of the things he quotes and recommends.

Based on what you have said, I would say legally, you are good to go...obviously, an attorney would likely be able to provide you with documentation and supporting evidence in the event there was a problem. Regardless, it sounds like the parents specifically said they didn't want those images posted anywhere online. Good taste and decency would, IMO, prevail over your 'legal right' in this case, and I wouldn't post them.

Specifically, a model release is to allow you to use their image in any way outlined by the release. It has nothing to do with your right, as the photographer to show your work.

In any case, the bad rep from going against the parents wishes would probably ruin you as a photographer, so, IMO, it's not worth messing with.

 

[SayGee]

I have a couple of my better shots that are of kids, but those particulr parents are adamant about Internet safety and their children and would not sign a release to allow me to use the photos my (w.i.p) online portfolio.

What you've said suggests I could use the images for anything other than a direct sale of that image - (but won't anyway now that I know the wishes of the parents).

I'm right there with you, Kebouchard and thank you, again, for the clarification. I know the matter of the need for releases can get a bit fuzzy at times. I just don't think it's appropriate for KmH to be so mulish towards a newbie erring on the side of conservatism, particularly after choosing such an intellectually obvious and more importantly, respectful path.

KmH, thank you for editing your post so as to also include a snippet, however, as I just said - the matter of need for releases can get a bit fuzzy at times. Better safe than sorry.

 

[imagemaker46]

I've never done a school shoot and probably won't cuz it's not my thing but this is what I would do from a marketing/ease of business stand point to get a schools business and keep hassles low. As a service you do not have to charge sales tax, so if you charge them a fee to come in and shoot say for 4 hours you charge $750 or something and then you tell the school that they will make all proceeds off pictures ordered, then even Dads like me that think those pictures are the biggest waste of money won't feel so bad when it's for charity. I had a friend who recently did something like that with real estate and it was a huge success, he donated 1/2 of all sales to the high schools track team. I hear the sales tax thing come up a lot in this forum, to me it seems like a clump of wasted time I would try to work your way around it and offer a service rather than a good. Come tax time you will be a lot more bearable to be around.

This person is just starting out and you want them to start charging $750 for 4 hours of work and not charge tax on the fees. I have always charged taxes on my professional fees, but then that could be just a Canadian thing. Are you telling her to find a way around having to pay taxes on earned income? Perhaps I'm wrong or isn't not paying taxes a criminal concern?

 

[CCericola]

There is a difference between income tax and sales tax. I believe ShooterMcGavin was referring to sales tax. In his area he may not have to charge sales tax for services. In NJ for instance, I don't have to charge sales tax for clothing. So if I have a client that wants T-shirts there is no need to charge sales tax on the clothing.

Each state had different tax laws, in some states tax laws vary by county or city. One just has to find out what the rules are and go from there. It is not as hard as I thought it was. Some states require you charge sales tax for services as well as products, some don't. But as a business owner you already know this going in.

I have a business manager so I admit I don't pay A LOT of attention to such things anymore and I know a lot of states have amended tax laws (especially California).