What to expect from the Canon EOS 60D?

Mishel · Jul 24, 2010

I love the pace of learning new stuff! - So another question:
What is DIGIC V does to the camera? - I know it is the image processing power (CPU) behind the camera, but that's all. Is there a difference between Nikon and Canon in this respect?

BTW: I would love to have video capabilities in the Canon 60D, because as far as I know, the Canon EOS 50D doesn't have video. I also want to add that I want to shoot landscape and cityscape pictures for my new upcoming website, so video will be cool, especially HD videos, but what is most important is the stills capabilities. Other thing (Sorry for digging), I have seen Nikon images and compared them to Canon, and is seems that Nikon has more vivid warmer colors, that somehow looks better for landscape photography. The Yellows and the Greens really emphasize the image and gives it a boost and it is more beautiful to watch.

I don't know if its matters or not (buying the Canon 60D or another camera), but I intend to shoot a lot of pictures and probably need to batch process them before uploading them to my website. So is it just a software problem, or having a Canon or Nikon camera can make a difference in this respect.

If I have some English mistakes, feel free to correct me

BTW
Regarding the Sigma SD15, look at this image (not the best one I know, but not mine either). The green and blue and the overall colors are so natural, I mean, really so natural. My problem is that if a color is over saturated, even a bit, I feel it. The SD15 really produce amazingly real and lifelike colors. Decisions, Decision, where does it end.

j-digg · Jul 24, 2010

I wont be looking to buy the 60d.. but it will be interesting to see what they do with it... Theyve already made things pretty close between the T2i and the 7d given the big price differences.. Itd be sorta funny to see them raise the MP count yet again

haha.

Overread · Jul 24, 2010

usayit said:
Don't complain about too many choices...

My choice of drug (Leica RF) has one choice and only one choice in their lineup. Its an expensive one too...

True but it can also have its downsides. At the moment the Canon line is pretty simple - you go up in price you go up in features within each sensor size grouping.
A 550D is lesser than the 7D which is lesser than the 1DM3 (crop even though its only 1.3 crop)
A 5DM2 is lesser than the err wait still waiting for canon fullframe 1Dversion.

But my point is that there is no split market within each crop group which in my mind is a good thing. A 60D makes little sense unless its greater than a 50D and lesser than a 7D (the 7D is a bit too young for an upgrade at the moment I feel).
I don't want to see the market starting to split within the same price bands - so that you end up with two or three similar priced bodies with the same crop and key featuers but with different focuses - because then you end up with a camera that can do sports (great AFF) but not low light (high usable ISOs) for example.
To my mind the power of the DSLR body is to be versatile not to be specialist and I'd hate to see the Canon line moving toward more specialised and limited market bodies

Josh66 · Jul 24, 2010

Mishel said:
Other thing (Sorry for digging), I have seen Nikon images and compared them to Canon, and is seems that Nikon has more vivid warmer colors, that somehow looks better for landscape photography.

That basically means nothing without knowing how they were processed.

You could have crappy PP from one camera, and awesome PP from the other.

Unless you knew which was which (or what was done to each picture), you can't really compare them.

Derrel · Jul 24, 2010

Hey Mishel,
I just got done downloading and looking at the following samples from the Sigma SD15 you referred us to.
The goose in sunlight...whites are totally blown, and the detail is inadequate. Just not enough resolution for 2010.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_15_ex.jpg
ocean sunrise--not enough "real detail"

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_16_ex.jpg
building facade..ehh...shadow detail is okay,but not bitingly sharp..

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_17_ex.jpg
silhouette...these look pretty on-screen, but do not show much detail,or much info.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_18_ex.jpg
silhouette-sky looks a tad noisy

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_19_ex.jpg
dog laying down,panting...inadequate resolution of fine hair detail,low contrast, but a soft color palette. On a close-up tele shot like this, there ought to be at least SOME bitingly-sharp details....I do not see any though.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_20_ex.jpg
another silhouette over ocean-like water...not enough real detail in the water. Shot at ISO 100, f/8 at 1/250 second at 34mm w 18-50 2.8~4.5 DC OS HSM Sigma lens

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_21_ex.jpg
all-white horse,shot in RAW at 42mm at f/5.6 at 1/400 second, ISO 100, same 18-50 2.8~4.5 lens, but look at the awful edge performance of the lens at the bottom of the frame--that looks very,very poor to me,optically. The subject is dramatic and well-lighted, but the "real detail" seems missing,compared to 12 MP Nikon camera results...the sensor in the SD-15 is simply NOT resolving high amounts of detail..it looks like roughly a decent 6MP camera's performance to me.

I dunno...what the SD15 is showing could have been done with any number of other cameras. I do not think the detail the SD15 shows in the above samples is particularly good for the year 2010.

As you can see, I have some Canon gear, a 20D,a 5D, a Rebel I never use but got cheap, and a bunch of Nikon lenses and shoot mainly the Nikon D2x as my Nikon of current choice. I have some fantastic Nikon lenses, and will shoot them on the Canon 5D body whenever I need to. I've become a big believer in the Full Frame body of around 12 or 13 megapixels as the best all-around, practical size, for modern photography uses. (Nikon D3,D3s,D700,Canon 5D Classic) To me, the best all-around compromises are full frame size sensor, and the 12 to 12.8 MP cameras...the need for more and more megapixels is being driven by the marketing departments; 12 MP is ample, and better than 35mm slide film was,and it demands a lot out of lenses on APS-C, 15 to 18 MP on 1.6x is too small a sensor and too tiny a pixel count for the lenses that really exist now at the current state of affairs.

Nikon has some newer, better lenses now than Canon does. Fact. Canon is in the midst of a lens line refresh, which Nikon began back in 2004, as their bodies lagged. Canon and Nikon are going tit-for-tat on lens refreshes, but Canon still cannot make a superb wide zoom,and by superb I mean **superb**....Canon's 16-35-L Mk II is still not up to snuff compared to the 14-24...the camera makers are bringing out new macro lenses as fast as they can (new Nikon 60mm G, new Nikon 80mm G, new 105 VR Micro-Nikkor), and Canon's got the new 100mm-L macro and I think a new 60mm as well.

I think the Canon 1.6x sensor size at 17.8 MP is past the point of diminishing returns for **total system performance**, but the BODY of the 7D is the direction Canon needs to go....they need to move the 5D-II upward, toward the Nikon D700 capabilities in terms of focusing system,and in color-aware metering so the camera can be used by an increasingly less-trained bunch of shooters who are moving into the field and who want color-aware metering and better flash metering than Canon has had up to this point.

I think maybe Canon will instead of a 60D, go with A) a 7D-type subsystem feature set thrown into a 6-D. Get it? 60D? Six-dee? A FF camera with the 5D's MP count, but the better handling of the 7D, with pro-speed AF, pro-speed firing, an basically a 5D on steroids and a direct head-to-head NIkon D700 killer.

MANY people are deluding themselves on the need for more and more megapixels. Total system performance depends on sensor size, pixel well size, electronic signal processing hardware in the camera, and lens performance; the bigger sensors, like 12-13MP FF do great,as the 5D and D3 and D700 have shown. The higher-density sensors like the 7D and 1D Mark IV are noisier than the larger cameras, especially at the really high ISO values. The bigger sensors of ALL sizes are "easier on the lens" and demand less lens performance to get an equal,or better result, because the sensor is 2.7x larger than a 1.6x sensor. The Sigma has a 2.0x FOV factor and a teeny sensor. On the web, or even 11x13 inkjet or 13x19 inkjet, 12MP is all my printer can really handle...so 10 or 12 MP on 1.5x,1.6x,or FF is ample for me,and for a lot of people.

Or maybe Canon will go with Plan B): whatever they think the market will buy like crazy. They had a big hit with the 10D, and the 20D was absolute gravy for Canon. The 5D, despite its fantastic sensor in Mark I,and its killer sensor and video in Mark II, has NOT been a good seller: it is slightly too expensive. A low-cost FF would probably sell better than anything they could bring out--but that could cannibalize 1Ds and 5D-II sales.

table1349 · Jul 24, 2010

What 60D? Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?

Derrel · Jul 24, 2010

gryphonslair99 said:
What 60D? Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?

In the Internet Age, that cart-before-the-horse mentality is what fuels sales of new cameras!!! Now that enthusiasts,professionals, and sales channel people can communicate in real-time with people all over the world, it's possible for people to get all amped up about a new product, well before it hits the shelves, or is even announced.

Today's "pro-sumer" is a huge sales component: he (almost always a 'he' ) gets his credit card ready before the announcement, and often sells off his perfectly good camera BEFORE the next model hits, then buys the new model ASAP, and he tells all his on-line buddies about the new model as soon as he gets it...

Cart before the horse has become the new modus operandi in the serious enthusiast/pro-sumer segment of the market. Camera makers absolutely love it!

I'm tired of buying new bodies...but there are millions who are just waiting, dying to get their hands on what I call "the next greatest thing". I love to buy those guys' used lenses when they dump their perfectly good lenses so that they can raise cash for their next greatest thing.

gsgary · Jul 24, 2010

gryphonslair99 said:
What 60D? Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?

:thumbup: how do we know it will even be called a 60D, the most important thing is behind the veiwfinder

sovietdoc · Jul 24, 2010

I seriously doubt 60D will be full frame. In fact, I can pretty much say it wont. FF is reserved by manufacturers for a crowd that can shell out $2500 and it will stay this way for some time, like a plasma tv five years ago. In the future there will be a time when APS-C's will be no longer needed as everything will be able to do FF and crop at the same time, but just not yet.

Out of sheer speculation, 60D will definitely have updated movie mode, maybe even better than 7D, and probably the same MP count as the 7D. 7D sits higher, so it must be able to do something 60d wont be able to. With that said, I am thinking maybe less fps shooting and half of the focusing points.

I think that if 5D mk2 cost around 2 grand, it would be the best price/performance camera for a non pro photographer, but who is taking it seriously. $2500 is a tad too steep. Also, because you need L glass to shoot on it, as cheap $300 lens don't seem to cut the picture quality. mk2 with a single L lens will run at $3500 which is serious money to spend for a photographer who doesn't get paid for his/her work. Not to mention that in 2 years it's outdated...

Mishel · Jul 25, 2010

Wow Derrel, thanks so much! -- I don't have time to read it all because I am at work, but when I get home, I will surely spend time reading your comments. :thumbup:

Canosonic · Jul 25, 2010

sovietdoc said:
I seriously doubt 60D will be full frame. In fact, I can pretty much say it wont. FF is reserved by manufacturers for a crowd that can shell out $2500 and it will stay this way for some time, like a plasma tv five years ago. In the future there will be a time when APS-C's will be no longer needed as everything will be able to do FF and crop at the same time, but just not yet.

Out of sheer speculation, 60D will definitely have updated movie mode, maybe even better than 7D, and probably the same MP count as the 7D. 7D sits higher, so it must be able to do something 60d wont be able to. With that said, I am thinking maybe less fps shooting and half of the focusing points.

I think that if 5D mk2 cost around 2 grand, it would be the best price/performance camera for a non pro photographer, but who is taking it seriously. $2500 is a tad too steep. Also, because you need L glass to shoot on it, as cheap $300 lens don't seem to cut the picture quality. mk2 with a single L lens will run at $3500 which is serious money to spend for a photographer who doesn't get paid for his/her work. Not to mention that in 2 years it's outdated...

yeah, but that's a shame.
The only way out I see, is to get the MKI with second hand L's.

But really. I need a new camera. I have a 400D and what I want is for the camera to counterweight my 10-20 and telephoto lens.
Video? I say get a normal video camera and instead give us f.e. selectable focus points (I don't know how it's called, but like in Nikons to aim focus, not only 9 spots).
More pixels? The pixel war should end by now. 15 MP - that's it for CMOS! Look at g11, they lowered the pixels of g10 and got a better camera!
I want improved PP from the 60D or 6D or whatever. Noise handling, Color processing.
Maybe inventing a new sensor would be nice. Like adding another color sensor, yellow or something. And 3D photography? But even if they do make this, they won't put it into the 60D.

Anyway, your photos are made not by your camera, but by YOU with your camera.

Mishel · Jul 25, 2010

Finally back from work

(a long day..). Derrel, first, Thanks so much for evaluating the pics, really many many thanks :hugs:. I have been going through you comments, and now I see exactly the problems with each photo. There is a difference when a professional photographer looks at images and how amateur photographer (yeh, that's me

) looks at them. I was a Canon guy not a long time ago (even tough that my father always told me to ONLY buy Nikon gear).

I agree with your evaluation that Nikon has better optical quality, no doubt about it. I have been looking through pbase and read some reviews on Nikon lenses and on Canon lenses, giving more emphasize on wideangle lenses, and in that segment, Nikon has the upper hand.

Not a long time ago, Canon was a leader in terms of sensor technology achievement, and that's because they manufacture the their CMOS sensors themselves, and so they can better optimize it for their specific cameras (like Apple does with its own hardware). But it seems that Nikon has been doing a lot of research and investing many funds to work with Sony on new sensors that can overcome some noise problem (as we have seen on in the Nikon D200 days). So when this obstacle has been demolished, Nikon has been improving ever since. The Nikon D90 is a fantastic DSLR, with great features, built quality and overall great image quality and less noise (of course need a good lens in front).

I think that even when the Canon 60D will come out, or any other DSLR that will replace the Canon 50D, I think they will have problems competing against the "older" Nikon D90, and I didn't eve mention the replacement of the Nikon D90 (how will they call it, I mean, they already had a D100??).

Regarding the "not enough resolution for 2010" (the Sigma SD15), I think that 4MP will be enough for me, because I don't intend to print the pictures, they are mostly for the web, even though I intend to put highres pictures online. But the Foveon X3 sensor is already 5 years old (happy birthday Foveon :lol:

) and I know that if we had seen a Nikon with 4MP, we have probably had gotten a noise free images in ISO 1600.

I think that regarding the sharpness of the SD15, nothing comes close to it regarding details. It really captures every pixel tack sharp.

I also want to mention that I had the Canon 400D and also have bought the Canon 50mm F1.4, and I had some really bad focusing problem with it. I actually never had those problems with my Brother's Nikon DSLR.

As much as I was interested in the Sigma SD15 or the Canon 60D, Nikon really seems a better option right now. There are some magnifisant wide-angle lenses in the Nikkor series, and I am sure that going for the Nikon D90 and 1 (expensive) Nikkor wideangle lenses will probably be a smart buy. But one thing I want for my website, and this is videos. I don't want to buy two separate cameras, and the HD video really can help getting some great videos for my website.

Again, many many thanks for your time, I really appreciate it A LOT!

BTW: I would give 1 vote for the company who would make custom DSLRs, so I can get a 6MP Nikon D300s, with large pixels, that would be cool!

I have Finally found myself a second home (TPF)