Who has seen ...

[deencarolh]

One of the reasons is Moore himself... Just look at his latest release.. sickening!

Dee

 

[Dandy-Warhol]

I've heard about that, can't wait to see it.

 

[vonnagy]

oi! 60 + post and no ones made any sexual references yet :shock: Whats the tpf coming too????

I don't think there is any quick solution for America's gun problem. Applying a dutch, aussie or swahili solutions to the States just would not work and it should not be imposed just as American laws should not be on other nations.

Gun ownership was probably not as prevelent anywhere else in the world as it is in the US. Simply stated, most countries have no history of widespread gun ownership as America does. I've been to Europe, and the only people other than police/military I have met that owned guns were wealthy hunters. America is quite different because your average Joe had the ability to legally own guns - so there is history there that other countries simply don't have. Simply saying x policy should be applied in the US cause it works in x country just doesn't hold water. You have to take a holistic approach and dig deeper.

I believe owning guns is normal, however our perception of gun owners has changed; times in general has changed. I think the problem is that people look at the problem from a period of time of 15 years or so (thats a microcosm of total time of the right to bear arms). The question should be asked, if American always had guns, why is NOW it because such a hot issue?

I grew up in a small town in north georgia and kids would have rifle racks in the back of the pickup trucks. It was normal, no one ever went on a killing spree back in my day.
ldman:
We had 'firearm education' which was mandatory in our school to teach us gun saftey. My father was given a .38 pistol for helping the local police capture to excaped convicts. I for one think guns are fine, i get a kick out of shooting them. I would not have a problem owning a gun, i just don't see a need for it.

Just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it should banned. Responsibility is the key issue. Knowledge is alot more dangerous than any weapon fashioned by man, should knowledge be banned?

Though I think Michael Moore has done well to bring the gun issue to the forefront, you have to remember he is out to sell movies. He is an entertainer as much as he is a documentarian. The problem is that most folks take is word for gospel. Its a good starting point for raising the issue. It annoys me how much nz'ers take his word for truth! He seems to pull out the most extreme cases of fanaticism in his films because that sells. I admire him for his audacity and humour, but they are tinged with his own biases as well. Though I don't doubt his patriotism, he is by no doubt cashing in on the current tide of anti american sentiment.

thats me own .05 cents, take it for a grain of salt maties!

and why the heck has no one used this emoticon yet??!!!:
you guys are getttin sooooooooooooo slack!!!

oh speaking of samauri swords, this story freaked me me out last year:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=3097444

 

[Jeff Canes]

Good Question

“The question should be asked, if American always had guns, why is NOW it because such a hot issue?”

It was on HBOS (I think?) started watching but could not take it. Ticks me off that he’s caponizing on those who die at Columbine. Maybe I should try to watch the whole move the next time it on again. But I ain’t rent it

I don’t own a gun, have not done any shooting in years, the last time was about 10 years ago at my cousin’s house in Kentucky after a family reunion, the only think that got shot where poker chip set up as targets, the only thing I hide was dirt LOL, but it was fun.

 

[Geronimo]

I have a gun, several in fact. The reason for them is to protect me while I am in the back country. There are other uses then to simply kill.

 

[Luminosity]

Yikes theres been a few posts .. dunno where to start.
Quite a lot of you have addressed very good points and come back with your own good questions....
Issues in society become so ingrained sometimes that we just stop SEEING it and THINKING about it.Then a tragedy strikes again and its in the news for a few weeks and we're saddened but we continue on , hanging on to the misconception "these things happen to other people".
The point ISNT the gun... a gun is just a chunk of metal ...until a human picks it up and points it at another living thing.
Why is this weapon , in so many ppl's possession, a problem today .....?
Could it be one reason is that violence in media etc has reached a high saturation point in America ?
Society /media culture is creating a pressure cooker where lives are cheap and weapons are quick to grab.
If it/they doesnt satisfy you/isnt fast enough/angers you..... throw it away/trade it in/strike out at them.
Guns are often the weapon of choice because they're in everyones reach , and are QUICK and easy.You dont have to raise a sweat killing someone these days. It just wouldnt do to have to actually get up and personal with someone , it might actually make you think twice.
Plus the movies /tv shows make it look so cool ......
However I don't believe gun bans are the answer.
We need to start valuing human life again.We need to stop making ppl so expendible.
Australia isnt anywhere near the point where ordinary citizens feel the need to own a gun for protection. YET. If we dont watch ourselves we'll walk down the same path one day.
Although , Melbourne has had a few samauri sword incidents lately :shock: ...ppl goin around thinkin they're in the next Kill Bill movie :roll:

P.S Oh and for Vonns sake ...... SEXUAL REFERENCE !!! ..... there ya go :LOL:!

 

[manda]

The facts are that people die because of guns, and people will continue to die because of guns.

Patently false, no gun has ever of its own volition just upped and killed someone.

Did I say guns get up and kill people? I said people die because of guns.
The guns don't do the killing, but put it in the hand of a child and your argument goes nowhere. Children should be accountable for killing themselves or someone else because they pulled the trigger? Please.

 

[havoc]

I came into this late but i got lots to say on the issue as well.

As for the Michael Moore movie, I thought it was very good, definitely enlightening on the subject. As for those who say he is an entertainer and looking for a buck, you must not have seen the special features on the DVD. This man is passionate about gun violence. In the features they showed one of several speeches he did well after the movie came out (so its hard to say it was just for publicity) where he was literally in tears and absolutely livid about gun violence in america and our governments handling of it. He may make a buck or two but the man is an artist, just like a painter, only his canvas is social issues and bringing attention to them.
As for the movie itself, he mentioned many reasons for the violence in america, i would agree with most of them. The underlieing message was fear. In one of his speeches he mentioned Columbine. While police were waiting 2 OR MORE HOURS to go in, there were all the parents waiting there behind a little piece police line tape. When the cops went in they found that the kids were already dead for 2 hours or so. How many victims bled to death in that time. How many didn't have to die if we weren't too afraid to go in there and help them?
Why were parents waiting behind a piece of tape to know whether or not thier kids were murdered?
THe answer is fear. And he is absolutly right about it. No one wants to get shot. I know i don't, but if we are to afraid to protect our own children, then there is something wrong with our species. Oue children are who we are, and if we are too afraid of a bullet to protect them, then we can't protect anything.
One person did storm the police tape to see if thier child was OK, they got about 20 feet past the tape before the cops pulled their guns on the parent. WTF is that! Thats a pure and simple abuse of power right there. No one should have the right to keep me from protecting my children, at least finding out if they are alive. And no one should withhold aid to innocents that need our assistance, especally not a cop. They weren't protecting anyone there. They were waiting until they thought it was safe for them to go in. Because they are afraid as well.
I have to say the single best moment on that video (besides Charlton Hestons insanity of course) is when he brought those two comumbine victims to the K-Mart headquarters to return the bullets that the Columbine murderers bought there. It was typical to see K-mart ignore them all day, and it was even more typical to see how quickly they responded after he brought the media with them the next day.
Marilyn Manson was the most intellegent person he interviewed in the entire movie. Say what you want about him and his act, he is a smart guy. There is something to be said about Windsor Canada. 6 deaths a yr to gun violence. In Detriot over 100. In the movie he found people from detriot in recreating in Canada because they thought they could feel safeer there. Anyways, it was a great movie, and he deserves to make a few bucks on it. Its sad for someone to say he is happily profiting from it.

As for some other things i read in this thread. Core, the reason you didn't want to walk hoime late at night in a small town was because of fear. Seems to be a common thread here. We are afraid to walk late at night. We are afraid so we carry guns, even though they are more likely to hurt you then the bad guy. Because we are afraid we have guns, and because we see them so much our kids want them, and because kids can't understand what death really is they shoot each other. It becomes a way of life, and they get dehumanized to it. Thereby making it easier to kill. Its a vicious cycle. There is no way to stop a determined pychopath from killing you. Because he can get a gun anywhere. Government is corrupted by one of the biggest lobbies in america (The NRA). The problem isn't the guns we are selling, its the guns that are already sold. There are more guns then people in the US. With those kinds of numbers its easy to get ahold of a gun, whether you can legally have it or not.

As for the second amendment. People quote the first line, Right to bear arms, but they don't quote the rest because it effectivley says that unless your in a milita you don't need a gun. Thats not so popular a line for gun companies and the NRA, (which has elected to leave that part off its propoganda). The second amendments time and place has passed, much like a lot of our amendments and original constitution. It wasn't made to function today, it was made to function 200 yrs ago, and unfortunatly times do change. The reason for the second amendment was because we just got out of an occupation (The british Empire) and america didn't have enough regular army to defend it. That is why it mentions the militia in the amendment. Because at the time we needed citizens to defend the country. Not anymore. We have one of the largest regular armies in the world. Some would make an argument that we are not free if we are not givin the tools to defend ourselves from us or our government. But in doing so, we have created a bigger fear, and that is the fear that Core 17was talking about. We are afraid to leave our house unlocked at night. We are afraid to walk down the street. We are afraid to live, because we have been conditioned to fear, which in turn conditions some to kill.

Some have said that americans are violent because we are pompous and arrogent. Come on, the british are arrogant, (no offense to any brits here) but they aren't killing each other left and right. America is violent because we have a vilent history, paved in blood with the revolution and civil war. Bullsh*it Every country has a violent history. Look at Britain, Germany, Japan. All have violent histories, but one have our problem with gun violence.

I am not saying that people shouldn't own guns. I am not a gun owner, but i would not be opposed to having one. Responsible gun ownership is like responsible driving, drive drunk and you could kill someone, behave irresponsibly with a gun, and someone could die. If we weren't so afraid to live, and weren't so conditioned to see gun play as no big deal i.e. movies/media then it would be easier to own guns responsibly.

Democracy is great, but govenments have to be fluid, and be able to change without being influenced by lobbies that are only looking to make a buck. I could talk all night about this, i gotta go to bed, but i look forward to reading all opinions.

 

[manda]

I think you made some wonderful intelligent points Hav.
I've never understood the constitution thing myself, but then I'm not an American.
Something that was written so long ago has no place to be dictating what you can do in a society that is so altered from the one existing when it was written.

It is about fear, but I do think that fear is perpetuated by the fact that guns are allowed to be kept by ordinary citizens.

The point about educating people...it won't ever work. There are always going to be stupid people in our world who cannot be trusted to get themselves educated. Stupid people will always exist.

What I think on this issue is not going to change and I doubt MrSid's is either, so I think I'm done.

 

[AMcNeice]

I grew up in a small town in north georgia and kids would have rifle racks in the back of the pickup trucks. It was normal, no one ever went on a killing spree back in my day.

We had 'firearm education' which was mandatory in our school to teach us gun saftey. My father was given a .38 pistol for helping the local police capture to excaped convicts. I for one think guns are fine, i get a kick out of shooting them. I would not have a problem owning a gun, i just don't see a need for it.

Just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it should banned. Responsibility is the key issue

Same here, except replace Georgia with South Carolina. I was one of the people who had the pickup with the gun racks. I was out at the hunt club pretty much every day of deer season because it's something I enjoy.

I own a couple of guns and have no problem with people owning them. However, I think the laws should be stricter and there definitely needs to be much more gun education laws for the general public.

I had to sit through a couple weekends worth of gun safety as well as classes on wildlife regulation to get my hunting license and I learned a great deal especially considering I had grown up with them. (My pops is an avid hunter)

As for the whole home protection idea for owning them, I think that is a load of croak. Any responsible gunowner imo should have the guns and bullets locked up in a gun cabinet to help avoid all the accidental deaths you hear about in the news. I can tell you there is no way I'm going to be able to get into my gun cabinet in the middle of the night and get one of the guns out in the middle of the night if I hear someone breaking in. I think I'll be better off with my Louisville Slugger and brute strength anyway

I could go on forever on this subject but the problem is that too many uneducated stupid people have access to them, there is no need for Walmart should not be selling guns (not to mention they only sell crap).

 

[Sharkbait]

Children should be accountable for killing themselves or someone else because they pulled the trigger? .

Where do you draw the line of 'child' though? In my eyes, a 16 yr old (legally a child) that accidentally kills his buddy in a hunting accident is tragic, a 12 yr old (legally a child) that joins a gang and kills his rival is criminal.

 

[Big Mike]

Wow, this is quite a thread.

I haven't put my thoughts together yet on this subject. I do agree with much of Moore's logic but will point out that his movie is documentary and not a statement of absolute fact.

I have a gun, several in fact. The reason for them is to protect me while I am in the back country. There are other uses then to simply kill.

How are guns used for protection other than to kill?

 

[danalec99]

One of the reasons is Moore himself... Just look at his latest release.. sickening!

Dee

Why would it be sickening?

 

[Mitica100]

OK, my two cents here:

I live in Arizona, I own two guns (a 22mm and a 9mm), both never fired and hope never will. What determined me to get them? Well, to me they were a symbol of freedom, as wrong as that might sound, the freedom to own guns which I never had prior to coming to the US. For 31 years I lived under a severe lack of basic freedoms in a dictatorship-style governing country. Today I regard them as an 'equalizer' in case my or my wife's life is ever threatened by an intruder and we both attended courses in how to handle and care for them. I bought them from a gun shop, never had to wait more than 10 minutes to finish the transaction.

Draw your own conclusions on how easy is to buy a gun here in Arizona, if you may.

The problem with owning guns anywhere in the world is the lack of education about them, what they can do and what they can't, how to handle them and how not to. Of course, there are so many people feeling empowered by owning a gun but only few know how to handle that power. Then there is the curiosity factor. Having served in the military in my youth, I had a chance to learn about guns, from AK 47s to grenade launchers, handguns, grenades and such. I am not curious anymore, I know how they function and their purpose.

Statistics, while majority of them are true, serve no reason at all save for promoting one's ideals or ideas. I agree with Moore's points overall but I think education should be enforced before purchasing a gun. Have a mandatory fire arms safety course with a binding evaluation before being able to purchase a gun. The problem with that though is the illegal sale of firearms, on streets or at gun shows. What do you do about that kind of thing? What can you do? Not much... Sadly enough!

 

[Mitica100]

One of the reasons is Moore himself... Just look at his latest release.. sickening!

Dee

Dee,

Have you seen his latest release? If so, where?? I'm sure you're talking about his 'Fahrenheit 911', right? :scratch: :scratch:

Another question begs being asked:

If you thought before hand that Moore is 'sickening', why did you go see his latest release?