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[danalec99]

This is a beautiful thread, IF we can hold the mature tone all along.

1) what would the ramifications be, assuming the results are universal and include the criminal element, if guns were not accessible to the general population?People would still kill others. those guns that were no longer available to the public would be stolen or sold illegaly.
2) why did the founding fathers include the second ammendment in the first place?
Because they were aware that one day every shoemaker, cobbler, breadmaker, and carpenter would have to take up arms to defend the very soil on which they live. and one day we might too.
md

I have not seen the movie yet and not a pro in constitution. I'm planning to see this movie as well as the Farenheit.

MD,
1. Did you mean ordinary citizens like you and me? OR Gang war. If you are talking about gang war, I can understand. No matter what, they will source their weapons.
But why would we (ordinary citizens) shoot our neighbor (hypethetical example) for x reason?

2. Your point on defending the soil sounds good. But which country is US afraid of right now, so that normal citizens can take to the street with their guns at the sound of fighter planes?

Someone was mentioning about the "responsible" use of the gun. Good point!
Question: How do we know who is responsible and who belongs to the irresponsible cadre, so that the govt. can issue license to the "responsible" folks?
Drunken driving is illegal because no one can draw a line on who a responsible drinker is.
Is it possible to draw a line re. the gun issue?

 

[MDowdey]

1) i mean anyone who has the urge to kill another human being will find a weapon.

2)its not that we are afraid of anyone. i was speaking specifically of the past.

let me stress my point further by stating that GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. when the little fed up, picked on 16 year old goes on a rampage and kills 20 of his classmates, he should be lynched, plain and simple. by the way, that has happened in other countries not just america. as the times change people are also getting more and more stressed, this generation is dealing with things their parents never dealt with, and sure enough this will lead to a new set of problems in the future.

md

 

[danalec99]

1) i mean anyone who has the urge to kill another human being will find a weapon.

2)its not that we are afraid of anyone. i was speaking specifically of the past.

let me stress my point further by stating that GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. when the little fed up, picked on 16 year old goes on a rampage and kills 20 of his classmates, he should be lynched, plain and simple. by the way, that has happened in other countries not just america. as the times change people are also getting more and more stressed, this generation is dealing with things their parents never dealt with, and sure enough this will lead to a new set of problems in the future.
md

1. You are right.
So you think it is advisable to own guns?

by the way, that has happened in other countries not just america.

Of course, shootings happen all over the globe.

But I thought we were talking about the US constitution/2nd amendment/civil war/past.

as the times change people are also getting more and more stressed, this generation is dealing with things their parents never dealt with,

like ?

 

[MDowdey]

over crowding, inflation, immigration, oil shortages, stress, depression, obesity, advertising, media, reality tv shows...

you name it, but whatever it is, its rotting the brains of ALL of us...people need to turn off their tv's and throw them away.

as far as rebutals to your responses...

1) I believe it is more prudent for one to own a handgun to protect oneself in the case of home invasion or all out war...

2)I UNDERSTAND we are talking about the US, but the point im trying to make is not everyone that is pro 2nd amendment is a gun totin hillbilly murderer.


md

 

[Chase]

One thing that bothers me in this whole discussion is one question.

If I am a law abiding citizen (let me be more specific: never convicted of a crime), what gives someone the right to tell me whether or not I am allowed to own a gun?

 

[danalec99]

over crowding, inflation, immigration, oil shortages, stress, depression, obesity, advertising, media, reality tv shows...

you name it, but whatever it is, its rotting the brains of ALL of us...people need to turn off their tv's and throw them away.

as far as rebutals to your responses...

1) I believe it is more prudent for one to own a handgun to protect oneself in the case of home invasion or all out war...

2)I UNDERSTAND we are talking about the US, but the point im trying to make is not everyone that is pro 2nd amendment is a gun totin hillbilly murderer.

md

1. You sound like a responsible gun owner, which is very good!
The question is; what if your neighbor is not? What if he feels one morning to shoot down all the people in your street?

2. True, we are talking about a bunch of insane irrresponsible folks. Those who wants to kill might kill, but a ban on weapons may cut down the widespread toy-like usage of guns by kids and old alike.
I now recollect Mayor Bloomberg's ban on cigerette smoking in public places. I'm not saying all the smokers in NYC quit smoking (hehe...thats impossible ); but a recent study found out that the number of smokers in NYC have decreased considerably after the ban!

over crowding- Is that a reason to kill someone?
inflation-Is this the first time in world history that we have crossed paths with inflation?
immigration-Could you elaborate on this term, if you dont mind?
oil shortages-I recently read from some place that the price of gasoline 25 years ago was same as of today! I cannot confirm the authenticity of the info.
stress, depression, obesity, advertising, media, reality tv shows...-Are these sufficient reasons to become a gun trotin hillbilly murderer?

Let me emphasize that my words are merely for the purpose of this constructive discourse. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone or anything.

We are just airing our our observations, arent we ?

 

[MDowdey]

none of the reasons i listed were in no way justification for killing someone. however if you were to come in my house unlawfully and threaten my family or me...i would put a full clip in you, reload and empty another clip.

ther reasons i listed were merely to state that the pressure of todays society is inclined towards making the average everyday person snap alot quicker.


md

 

[danalec99]

none of the reasons i listed were in no way justification for killing someone. however if you were to come in my house unlawfully and threaten my family or me...i would put a full clip in you, reload and empty another clip.
md

If someone was to do the same thing to me, I would try to defend my family either by calling 911 or swing a baseball bat to knock him unconcious and let the cops do the rest of the job. I would not want to think of taking his life. But thats just me!

ther reasons i listed were merely to state that the pressure of todays society is inclined towards making the average everyday person snap alot quicker.

So, the issue here is Anger Management!

 

[MDowdey]

no the issue is the media, and idiots breeding idiots. but thats just my 2 cents.

im done with this thread, however intriguing it all is...i hate discussions like this...

peace out.

md

 

[Big Mike]

however if you were to come in my house unlawfully and threaten my family or me...i would put a full clip in you, reload and empty another clip.

OK, I can understand that attitude. Self preservation is basic human nature.

As pointed out, crazy gun toting maniacs can be anywhere. So why not shoot your neighbor because he may pose a threat to your family because he owns a gun? Then why not travel to the other side of the world and kill some people there because they have the means to become a threat to your family?

I have no problem with your responsible gun ownership. However I'm not a fan of the fundamental idea that everyone should be able to have a gun based upon the idea that they need it in case of threat. By your having a gun, you are more of a threat to your neighbor. Soon everybody has a gun to protect them selves but the biggest threat may be from other people who are protecting themselves from your guns. This is hypothetical but it's not too far removed from a global arms race.

Look at the Terminator movies for example. An intelligent computer is created and then threatened by humans. It's solution to stop the threat was to eliminated the humans. How far off are we from trying to eradicate anyone who poses a threat?

 

[havoc]

I hate when people state an opinion and then say they are done talking about it. If your going to put your two cents in then you need to be ready to accept others comments on them.
There is valid reason for any citizen to own a gun, though it is there right and i respect that. home defense is bullshit. Statistically speaking the percentages of criminals using guns in home invasions is very small. More likely they will have nothing and hope to do their business withut waking you up. If they do want to do harm to you, they won't pick a gun because it makes too much noise. More then likely they will use a knife or blunt weapon if anything at all. And in either case your going to be quicker and do more harm with a baseball bat then you will fumbling for your gun, loading it, and hoping that you shoot straight in a panic. If nobody had guns then you wouldn't need one on the street either. Since they do have guns. The responsible way of handling it is to take the guns out of their hands. Carrying one yourself is going to prove more problematic then its worth in most cases. Again with the statisitics, If someone pulls a gun on you, you are more likely to survive if you run away rather then fight. They will get close up to you. If you try and pull a gun you will already be dead if they are really looking to use it. If you run away then you create distance between the you and your attacker. 90% of the time they have had no training on how to use one, and couldn't shoot straight to save their soul. They say if you run away their is only a 20% chance of getting hit, and another 20 % chance on top of that to be mortally wounded. If you stay and fight its like 60% that you will be killed. I would rather run and takes my chances.
Even in consealed weapons training classes they tell you that if your withen 20 feet of your attacker, a knife will do you more good then a gun. A gun takes to long to pull out make ready, aim and fire. It only takes about a second and a half for someone to knock you to the ground from 20 feet away.

As for children shooting children being criminals. Its not as easy an issue as to just see they should be lynched. Sure they commited a criminal act, but a person is not fully aware of the world and consequences at 16, certainly not at 12 or 10 either. What needs to happen is educate kids on why they shouldn't use a gun for any purpose, and then also deny any access to them whatsoever. For the kids that have used guns you need to find out why they feel they need it, and eliminate that feeling of need. I am not ready to write off some poor kid (even at 16) for killing another kid. They are not aware of what they are doing. Sure there must be punishment for it. But trying children as adults and giving them the death penalty is not the solution. I don't want to support them in jail forever when they could be rehbilitated. And they can be if people focused on that instead of punishing offenders.

 

[MDowdey]

I hate when people state an opinion and then say they are done talking about it. If your going to put your two cents in then you need to be ready to accept others comments on them.

im trying very hard to not say something that crosses a line here, so ill leave with this...ive accepted others comments graciously for 5 pages now, i just chose to tell danelec99 that i couldnt think of anything else to say about it. if you have a problem with the way i conduct discussions, please feel free to PM and let me know what ive done wrong, but DO NOT bait me in front of others.

matthew

 

[Sharkbait]

As for children shooting children being criminals. Its not as easy an issue as to just see they should be lynched. Sure they commited a criminal act, but a person is not fully aware of the world and consequences at 16, certainly not at 12 or 10 either. What needs to happen is educate kids on why they shouldn't use a gun for any purpose, and then also deny any access to them whatsoever. For the kids that have used guns you need to find out why they feel they need it, and eliminate that feeling of need. I am not ready to write off some poor kid (even at 16) for killing another kid. They are not aware of what they are doing. Sure there must be punishment for it. But trying children as adults and giving them the death penalty is not the solution. I don't want to support them in jail forever when they could be rehbilitated. And they can be if people focused on that instead of punishing offenders.

But I do NOT for one instant buy that there is some magical line in the sand. One day you're a child and the next you're not. That's what that 18-is-an-adult thing is all about, and IMO it's utterly ridiculous. That was the whole point of my analogy. If you take away all but the barest of facts, in case #1, a 16 year old is dead at the hands of another 16 year old; in case #2 a 12 year old is dead at the hands of another 12 year old. Both cases are of gunshot wounds. Looking at just that, you could either say that both shooters are children and should be let off, or you could say that the 16 year old is close to being an adult, and should be tried as an adult.

But there is a WORLD of difference in terms of criminality, fault, and blame.

I am surrounded day in and day out by 13 year olds. While there are many that are children, there are many that think like adults as well. Being an educator, I have a pretty good background in developmental psychology, and true biological adulthood can hit anywhere between 13 and 18 for boys, 10 and 17 for girls. Mental (or psychological) adulthood usually runs later, but again there's a wide discrepancy in terms of when a person starts having the cognitive facilities of an adult.

 

[Sharkbait]

To make it much simpler though, the act of shooting at someone with the intent of killing them is really a matter of right and wrong, and the vast majority of children around 10 years of age (plus or minus a year or two of course) are fully aware of the socio-cultural difference between right and wrong.

 

[deencarolh]

I get too upset to continue this thread.. I feel hurt, threatened, frustrated..so many feelings. I find this very emotional for me. so I will just drop out and not read anymore thank you.
Dee