censorship

[runnah]

Not a fan of censorship in any form or fashion. I think the act of being offended by something is important for everyone and it reveals much about the offender and offended.

I think the solution is for people who don't like such arguments to just ignore them or not read them. Threads being shut down and posts deleted does a disservice to the community. At its root censorship is one group saying they know what is best for another group. I personally like to make up my own mind about an issues rather than have it made for me.

Similar to me trying to take a show off the air rather than change the channel.

 

[Overread16 4]

In support of Pixi's point its also important to remember that sometimes a thread reaches a critical point where even after moderators have told people to move on they don't. Even after cleaning the thread out these arguments can either result in the cleaned thread being ignored (everyone has a sour taste in their mouth from the fight) or the fight just goes on again.

It's a fine line between cleaning and closing a thread and it is very much sometimes a situation where damned if you do and damned if you don't. A few fighting posts are easy to remove - a more involved argument gets complex (especially as many fighting posts might well also be addressing the original thread topic and engaging in calmer or worthy contribution alongside the fight which makes it really hard to break them up).

 

[shefjr]

Not a fan of censorship in any form or fashion. I think the act of being offended by something is important for everyone and it reveals much about the offender and offended.

This is a big problem in America. People think that it is in their Bill of Rights that they should not be offended by anyone. This is and will ruin the country. One person dislikes something and or is offended by it and it has to stop. It's not right. Be offended and don't look at whatever it is anymore instead of changing it for everyone else who may like it.

BTW this isn't about the forum. I'm talking in general about America as a whole.

 

[pixmedic]

Not a fan of censorship in any form or fashion. I think the act of being offended by something is important for everyone and it reveals much about the offender and offended.

I think the solution is for people who don't like such arguments to just ignore them or not read them. Threads being shut down and posts deleted does a disservice to the community. At its root censorship is one group saying they know what is best for another group. I personally like to make up my own mind about an issues rather than have it made for me.

Similar to me trying to take a show off the air rather than change the channel.

it is less about one group thinking they know whats best for another group, and more of the "owners" deciding what content they want on their forum, and how they want it administrated.
The forum is free to use, but by participating here, you agree to play by their rules.
just like TV shows that cannot say certain words. or radio. or newpapers.
"opinions" are not censored, but the way they are expressed is.
this forum must still offer you some content that keeps you logging on despite its "censorship rules", and for each person like you, that feels censorship is in poor taste, there is someone else that feels we do not censor enough. The administrators have charged the Mod team with trying to keep some sort of balance. believe me, it isn't nearly as easy as i thought.

I am sure there are forums that offer little to no censorship, yet the most active forums I have personally seen all have similar posting rules to TPF. This is just how the owners want things, so that is how we do it. I don't have to personally agree with EVERY rule in place here, but I DO have to enforce them as best I can.

I agree that people who are offended by things should just go to another thread, but the REAL disservice to the forum community is done when people engage in flame wars KNOWING it will get the thread locked, and ruining an otherwise useful thread or discussion, yet it persists. people post inflammatory comments that they KNOW is against the rules, get warned by a Mod, CONTINUE the attacks, and then act all butthurt when the thread gets locked, or infractions are given out....yet somehow, its the mods and their heavy handed censorship tactics that are a problem? you have to give us at least a LITTLE credit here...for the most part, threads usually arent just arbitrarily locked at the first sign of trouble. It usually happens after someone ignores a mods warning and continues the flaming.

No one here is trying to censor opinions. no one is trying to stop discussions or even debates.
what the admins DO want however, and insist that the mods enforce, is discourse in a civil and non inflammatory manner.
that's all. discuss whatever you want. debate till your hearts content. just don't be an ass about it.

 

[The_Traveler]

Not a fan of censorship in any form or fashion. I think the act of being offended by something is important for everyone and it reveals much about the offender and offended.

This is a big problem in America. People think that it is in their Bill of Rights that they should not be offended by anyone. This is and will ruin the country. One person dislikes something and or is offended by it and it has to stop. It's not right. Be offended and don't look at whatever it is anymore instead of changing it for everyone else who may like it.

BTW this isn't about the forum. I'm talking in general about America as a whole.

Man, it must be lack of coffee this morning because I just don't understand what these comments are saying.

Two points:

• This forum isn't a place where free speech is guaranteed.
• Too many people here are taking any disagreement with their points as being a jab at them personally - and responding.

 

[shefjr]

Lew it must be the coffee because I did say, "this isn't about the forum". I am well aware of different rules on this forum. I never made either assertions that you have pointed out. Since this is in the "off topic" part of the forum I took the conversation to a different place for a second to rant about what I notice these days in REAL life and not a forum with rules governed by a select few individuals.

Not a fan of censorship in any form or fashion. I think the act of being offended by something is important for everyone and it reveals much about the offender and offended.

This is a big problem in America. People think that it is in their Bill of Rights that they should not be offended by anyone. This is and will ruin the country. One person dislikes something and or is offended by it and it has to stop. It's not right. Be offended and don't look at whatever it is anymore instead of changing it for everyone else who may like it.

BTW this isn't about the forum. I'm talking in general about America as a whole.

Man, it must be lack of coffee this morning because I just don't understand what these comments are saying.

Two points:

• This forum isn't a place where free speech is guaranteed.
• Too many people here are taking any disagreement with their points as being a jab at them personally - and responding.

 

[The_Traveler]

I agree that people who are offended by things should just go to another thread, but the REAL disservice to the forum community is done when people engage in flame wars KNOWING it will get the thread locked, and ruining an otherwise useful thread or discussion, yet it persists. people post inflammatory comments that they KNOW is against the rules, get warned by a Mod, CONTINUE the attacks, and then act all butthurt when the thread gets locked, or infractions are given out....yet somehow, its the mods and their heavy handed censorship tactics that are a problem? you have to give us at least a LITTLE credit here...for the most part, threads usually arent just arbitrarily locked at the first sign of trouble. It usually happens after someone ignores a mods warning and continues the flaming.

But, closing the thread punishes everyone and accomplishes what the jerk is trying to do, which is be disruptive.

I suggest that a better course of action in many cases would be

1. a public warning that the next person to transgress gets hurt.
2. a private warning to the person/people involved
3. then, upon more bad behavior, banish the offender but let the thread go on - uncleansed.

Stop giving the offender(s) so much power.

 

[pixmedic]

I agree that people who are offended by things should just go to another thread, but the REAL disservice to the forum community is done when people engage in flame wars KNOWING it will get the thread locked, and ruining an otherwise useful thread or discussion, yet it persists. people post inflammatory comments that they KNOW is against the rules, get warned by a Mod, CONTINUE the attacks, and then act all butthurt when the thread gets locked, or infractions are given out....yet somehow, its the mods and their heavy handed censorship tactics that are a problem? you have to give us at least a LITTLE credit here...for the most part, threads usually arent just arbitrarily locked at the first sign of trouble. It usually happens after someone ignores a mods warning and continues the flaming.

But, closing the thread punishes everyone and accomplishes what the jerk is trying to do, which is be disruptive.

I suggest that a better course of action in many cases would be

1. a public warning that the next person to transgress gets hurt.
2. a private warning to the person/people involved
3. then, upon more bad behavior, banish the offender but let the thread go on - uncleansed.

Stop giving the offender(s) so much power.

It is not just an arbitrary Mod decision to lock or edit a thread.
quite often it is done at the request of the OP.
If it were left to me, we would have a system as such...
warning -> infraction -> temp ban -> permanent ban.
(where X# infractions = temp ban and X# temp bans = permanent ban)

honestly though, I see no value in leaving 4 pages of flame war in a thread about focal length. deleting the offending and unrelated comments does much to put the thread back on track.
i would personally rather see repeat offenders permanently banned that have to continually moderate threads.

 

[The_Traveler]

You are talking about what is done to the offender.
You need also to be thinking about how to minimize the effects on the audience.

Encourage people to report things when they start, take action to stop the behavior then remove the offender, don't shut down the party.
Movie theaters don't stop the movie when someone is noisy, they remove the offender.

 

[manaheim]

I agree that people who are offended by things should just go to another thread, but the REAL disservice to the forum community is done when people engage in flame wars KNOWING it will get the thread locked, and ruining an otherwise useful thread or discussion, yet it persists. people post inflammatory comments that they KNOW is against the rules, get warned by a Mod, CONTINUE the attacks, and then act all butthurt when the thread gets locked, or infractions are given out....yet somehow, its the mods and their heavy handed censorship tactics that are a problem? you have to give us at least a LITTLE credit here...for the most part, threads usually arent just arbitrarily locked at the first sign of trouble. It usually happens after someone ignores a mods warning and continues the flaming.

But, closing the thread punishes everyone and accomplishes what the jerk is trying to do, which is be disruptive.

I suggest that a better course of action in many cases would be

1. a public warning that the next person to transgress gets hurt.
2. a private warning to the person/people involved
3. then, upon more bad behavior, banish the offender but let the thread go on - uncleansed.

Stop giving the offender(s) so much power.

Fine with me... But we would be banning about 5 people daily. And then there would be posts saying we were unfairly banning people.

 

[manaheim]

You said it yourself, it's a double edged sword.

If we lock the thread it ends the fight or whatever other offense is going on. You're not left wondering what the hell happened to the thread or why, but you're frustrated that a good conversation may have been ended.

If we call people out specifically for being a problem, then individuals are dealt with directly (a citation), and the thread can continue on without worry. (traffic continues) Then, however, people feel targeted and made an example of, and that upsets people.

And on and on and on. There's no winning it.

As pix said, we don't make up the rules, we just enforce them. I'll tell you outright that if I had my way, there would be a set of criteria that would pretty much insta-lock any thread. The word professional in the title, an obvious rant, any thread that goes beyond X posts or Y pages in under Z minutes, etc. There's a distinct pattern to these things and they all wind up in the same place with very few exceptions. That, however, is not the way we do things here.

The mods here follow a pretty consistent approach to things... if we see a violation of the rules, we warn that people are teetering off the edge, and if the course isn't corrected, the thread gets locked. In extreme or repeat cases people get infractions. In even more extreme cases there are temporary bans, and eventually permanent ones. Very rarely is an action taken without some sort of discussion and sound-boarding.

All told, I think the moderators here have a pretty light touch. A buddy of mine moderates a gun forum. You say one thing against the rules, you get warned and given an infraction. Second infraction, you're on a 5 day ban. Third infraction, you're out for good. No questions, no debating. This very thread would have been shut down pretty much on post one.

*shrug*

 

[pixmedic]

You are talking about what is done to the offender.
You need also to be thinking about how to minimize the effects on the audience.

Encourage people to report things when they start, take action to stop the behavior then remove the offender, don't shut down the party.
Movie theaters don't stop the movie when someone is noisy, they remove the offender.

it partly depends on what mods are on at the time.
we all take a slightly different view on what "out of line" is.
there are no set rules on this. no set standards.
its easy to say "take out the offenders", but not so easy when your the one that has to decide where the "line" is.
some people take a very hard line on what is off topic, some people not so much depending on what they feel the scope of the topic is.

most movie theaters dont throw someone out at first outburst. (unless is it EXTREMELY offensive maybe)
they wait until it is a pattern of disruption. people are given a chance to calm down. the same applies here.

 

[runnah]

[*]This forum isn't a place where free speech is guaranteed.

So the fact that every major media outlet tows the same line isn't troubling? The practice that information is warped and held back so as to not offend sponsors and the drooling public isn't disgusting?

If anything a small online forum is the only place one would expect free speech.

 

[pixmedic]

[*]This forum isn't a place where free speech is guaranteed.

So the fact that every major media outlet tows the same line isn't troubling? The practice that information is warped and held back so as to not offend sponsors and the drooling public isn't disgusting?

If anything a small online forum is the only place one would expect free speech.

I will relate back to a previous statement i made.
you are pretty free here to discuss whatever you want.
the ONLY major constraint is that you must conduct yourself in a civil manner.

how is asking people not to engage in flaming and personal attacks really hindering your free speech?
because you cant call someone a ********** ***** ***** **** openly on the forum?
we dont tell you what you can and cannot discuss here...we only tell you that you have to NOT be a total A$$ about it.

 

[The_Traveler]

Until very recently I was a mod on a different photography forum (for about 5 years) and we did things a bit differently - and it seemed to work.

The rules of behavior were very simple - each member must respect each others' statements, abilities and subjects, no matter what.
Disagreements were fine but we really discouraged the kind of passive-aggressive, back-biting BS we see so often here.
Warnings were given in line, in the thread.
If threads got out of hand too quickly for the mods to get there, the thread was removed to the mod forum and 'things were sorted' and the mods discussed the issue.
Threads very rarely got locked but were generally returned as is with an explanation of what was wrong.
People rarely got banned for good.

As I see it here, the hidden-ness of the mod's responses leads many people to conclude that there are usually only two levels of response, none and locking.
The few times I have seen the mods say something officially in line seem to have been very effective.
I suggest more of that to create a model for good behavior.