Critiques and comments

[cgipson1]

There were recently two interior photo's of a tinsmith's hut. I didn't give a rat’s behind if they were technically correct. I simply enjoyed viewing them as a different culture and told the OP so.
Should I have saved my breath and enjoyed the photo’s, and not comment because I didn't leave a deep thought provoking critique?

Depends... when a person (LEW in this case) is at a certain level of accomplishment, and not here to "LEARN THE BASICS", then the "Like" is probably adequate.

But if that individual IS here to learn... and needs HELP and GUIDANCE,how does just a "I like it" help them?

in that particular case then, it would be up to the OP to say whether or not they are looking for learning critique or not. we do have a "just for fun" section intended for people that just want to share a picture with no expectations of any C&C. im not sure how many members actually KNOW who is at what experience level. especially with the amount of new people. I think there's an equal issue in the way people receive C&C as much as there is an issue with the way people give it.

"proper" C&C is a debate as close to being solved as "lens filters for protection", "nikon -vs- canon", or "professional grade monitors"

Agreed! But often you can look at an image, and get some idea where the photographer is... and every forum EXCEPT the "Just for Fun" is open to C&C.... whether they ask for it or not... (At least I think that is how it is!)

 

[cwcaesar]

One can learn a lot form attempting to do C&C... but many people are intimidated by C&C especially in a group forum that will correct them when wrong. I also agree the "WOW's" and "I LIKE IT" on images that may not deserve it, are a bit annoying... as it can encourage someone to continue what they are doing wrong!

Unless the person leaving the comment is lying about what they think, I don't see what your point is.

If I like a photo, I'll say so, regardless of whether it meets somebody else's arbitrarily defined standards of technical perfection. I guess I'm a rogue in this respect, in that I have no problem coming out and saying I think a photo is good even if I know that photo-forum dogma would dictate a less favourable opinion.

There is merit to the "say why you like the photo" thing, but what makes for a "good photo" is in the eye of the beholder.

You are obviously NOT one of the "Intimidated" ones to which he was referring.

 

[Rick58]

This can go on and on, but bottom line is...WHAT DOES IT MATTER?.
If you (figuratively) don't like my "like", "great job", "nice photo" comments what did it hurt for me to post it?
Would that thread be better off without my contribution?
Some people here only pick very few, select, photos to even comment on. Is that better?
Does ignoring the noobie because he isn't up to a certain standard make a person a better forum member?

It's funny but a while ago someone ( I'm sorry. I don't recall who) posted a few photo's from an old folding camera. They weren't earth shattering, but they were just fun to look at. I posted as such.

I think now is a good time for me to bow out of this thread.

 

[Designer]

"Oh, what DIFFERENCE does it make?"

 

[imagemaker46]

Interesting when a thread on critiques and comments turns into a critiques and comments thread on how everyone sees critiques and comments.

 

[Buckster]

The same is true for all art forms though, and "expert" critics in all those fields disagree with one another all the time, and the public disagrees with them like crazy, validating those art forms by buying the crap out of them because they truly love them, no matter what the "experts" say, no matter what the books full of information on what elements of the arts people like and why they like them say.

That's only possible because it's not objective science or math that has a single valid answer that can be proven, written in a book, and everyone is forced to agree with it. On the contrary, it's only possible because it really IS all subjective to each individual person's opinions; Based solely on what they like and dislike, are drawn to or not.

Surely there are pieces of art that "experts" and "the book" say you should like or even love because they meet "the criteria" - and yet you don't. And no doubt, the opposite is also true. That should be all the evidence you need to know that it's all subjective, not just the stuff you personally disagree with the "experts" on.

Well, I can't really speak for you though, obviously, but it's enough for me to recognize it in that way.

But we aren't giving expert opinion, valuing something against a firm standard.

By "expert", I mean those who have extensive knowledge and experience with the subject, who appear to others and come off as, and are generally recognized as, persons with the level of knowledge and experience to speak with some measure of authority on the subject they are addressing. They have been referred to in this thread as "someone more knowledgeable", "the authorities", "more experienced members", "a pro", "a person at a certain level of accomplishment" and of course every inference arrived at by understanding the implied opposite of "noob" and "those with less experience", etc.

Example: In case you hadn't noticed it, Charlie certainly sees you as an "expert". So much so that if you give a short, "I like it", that counts for something in his mind. But, he's argued, others who are less accomplished need to also say WHY they like it.

What we are doing is telling someone how we respond to their image

That is to say, you are giving them your OPINION, based on your feelings, your experience and your knowledge of the subject. There is nothing in the universe however, that says that your particular feelings, experience and knowledge are the be-all, end-all, trumping any others that don't agree with you. Thus, the subjective nature of it all.

- and the point the OP is making is that there are better, more useful, more complete ways of helping the photographers than are often done.

My reading comprehension is actually quite good, and I get that. I also read the rest of the responses in the thread and am responding to some general conversation about it all.

The OP, and some others who've chimed in, seem to me to have gone beyond merely stating in a completely benign way that there are better ways to help someone, and crossed into "this irks me and I think it should somehow be stopped" territory on the subject of short comments that do not impart much beyond praise for given works. I am simply one of those in the thread who disagrees with that premise, and have tried to articulate my thoughts on it as part of the discussion. My feeling on the matter is that those short phrases are just fine, and have their place just as much as some long-winded diatribe of pixel-peeping and nit-picking by someone who thinks they've got all the answers.

Naturally, your mileage may vary.

Those of you on the other side seem to want to pretend that we all signed a contract when we joined the forum that says, "I agree that I am hereby OBLIGATED to do all I can to help other photographers get better by giving a full, concise and complete critique by giving them MY FULL UNMITIGATED OPINION anytime I dare to write anything about a photo I see on the site." It's not a new song around here. See: "The Pact"; Another version of it that went over like a lead balloon, even though some thought it was the greatest thing since somebody said, "what if we slice the bread before we sell it?"

Hey, if that's the way you feel and want to do that, have at it. But that doesn't obligate anyone else around here to do the same. When I feel like helping, chiming in, discussing or just one-word-praising something I see, that's what I'm going to do. And, hold onto your hat - I really, seriously, honestly don't care if you like it or not. Here's another shocker - I take every comment and critique on every one of my own photos with a huge grain of salt, whether it's praise or derision, short or long-winded - even if it comes from someone around here who comes off as an "expert" to themselves or others - 'cuz in reality, it's just opinions, don'cha know.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the time and effort folks make to leave their thoughts, but it neither makes nor breaks my opinion of my own work when it's all said and done. On some few occasions, I get some new insight through that process, and may even incorporate a suggested change, but it's not the norm for me. I'm pretty happy with my own vision, whether anybody else likes it or not.

I can say the same for the comments made to others' posted work. It rarely influences the way I see the piece, no matter who posted the C&C.

But maybe that's just me...

Our opinions can range easily

Probably the major point of what I'm saying, and proof that it's all subjective so, short-quipped or long-winded, it's just an opinion in the end.

but the manner in which we give them should be chosen to give the photographer posting as much insight into what we are thinking as possible.

Again, none of us signed that imaginary contract you keep bringing up, so none of us are obligated to adhere to it. That's simply your opinion, shared by some but not by all, and you're welcome to it. My opinion is that each person should contribute just as much as they feel like, from nothing at all to book-length, and that it's no skin off anybody's nose, either way.

I think if you really believe what you're saying, you shouldn't skip over any posted images, but should do a full write-up on each, in order to best help those photographers.

In the end, it appears from your statements above that you agree with me that they're just opinions, and that's kind of the bottom line with me. Anything you have to say about any piece you're looking at is nothing more than a subjective opinion based on the way you see it, so it has very little weight in point of fact. Anyone at all could disagree with your assessment, see it in completely the opposite way, and be just as valid in their opinion. You can say, "it's too dark" and the next person can say, "it's perfect" or "it's not dark enough". There's no "right" to any of them, other than to say that each person's statement is "right" to the person that made it.

 

[kundalini]

Here's a little Excercise the Noobies Can Play........

..... but let me give you a little back story first. When I first joined TPF I had been on a several year hiatus from shooting much of anything and previously it had all been film. Digital photography was completely new to me even though most of the basics remained true. I was just the terms being used, the slang and acronyms took a while to set in my mind. Hell, I didn't even know what RTFM or STFU meant with only four letters, much less what ROFLMAO was supposed to be about.

So after that bit of acclimation became more comfortable, I wanted to learn AND be a contributing member. Yep, I started out with the "I like it"; "Good job" and such. But back then, there really was more support of the community with helpful advice. Not just on my photos, it was evenly distrubuted. I started to really pay attention to the other members that I found particularly gratious with their time for commenting on photos that were in dire need of assistance. Then I had a thought.....


Here's the Excercise Part.....

Before I would read any previous comments on a photo posted for C&C, I would study the image. I would deconstruct it to the best of my ability and elvaluate it on its own merits. Initially, I would jot down notes on paper and shortly aftewards I would trust my memory.... always a bad move on my part. Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments. The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C. The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.

So there it is. If you're intimidated to comment on a photo due to insecurity, do it anyway, but just keep it to yourself. Was it Mark Twain that said "It is best to be considered a fool, than to open your mouth and be proven so"? (or something like that).

 

[pixmedic]

Here's a little Excercise the Noobies Can Play........

..... but let me give you a little back story first. When I first joined TPF I had been on a several year hiatus from shooting much of anything and previously it had all been film. Digital photography was completely new to me even though most of the basics remained true. I was just the terms being used, the slang and acronyms took a while to set in my mind. Hell, I didn't even know what RTFM or STFU meant with only four letters, much less what ROFLMAO was supposed to be about.

So after that bit of acclimation became more comfortable, I wanted to learn AND be a contributing member. Yep, I started out with the "I like it"; "Good job" and such. But back then, there really was more support of the community with helpful advice. Not just on my photos, it was evenly distrubuted. I started to really pay attention to the other members that I found particularly gratious with their time for commenting on photos that were in dire need of assistance. Then I had a thought.....


Here's the Excercise Part.....

Before I would read any previous comments on a photo posted for C&C, I would study the image. I would deconstruct it to the best of my ability and elvaluate it on its own merits. Initially, I would jot down notes on paper and shortly aftewards I would trust my memory.... always a bad move on my part. Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments. The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C. The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.

So there it is. If you're intimidated to comment on a photo due to insecurity, do it anyway, but just keep it to yourself. Was it Mark Twain that said "It is best to be considered a fool, than to open your mouth and be proven so"? (or something like that).

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[kundalini]

^^^ my Readers Digest Condensed Version

 

[ceeboy14]

Me thinks my original premise went somewhere between the absolute and the who gives a rat's patootey. I really only want viewers to understand how much impact their commnets can have on a Noob or even an old toot like me. Telling an OP a terrible shot is awesome is of no value to anyone. If you really think a shot is awesome, it only takes a simple, short explanation as to the why. That's all. In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.

 

[kundalini]

Here's another thing for newbies to keep in mind when they are C&Cing on a photo. FORGET THE SELFDEPRICATION. Pull your bootstraps young man or woman. The "I'm not a professional", "I'm just starting" and "Well, this is not my genre, but..." is a cop out. State your business with justification and conviction, until proven wrong. I hate pansies..... except in the garden. There, they are hearty breeds and yield very wonderful color and texture.

 

[pgriz]

There are several components to a C&C: reactive, analytic and prescriptive. I can react to an image with "I like!" or "ugh." or whatever. Anyone can react - no training required except the ability to breathe, see, {feel} and type. It takes more effort to think about the 'Why". Training and experience help us with the vocabulary. It also takes some self-reflective ability to piece out WHY something appeals (or not) to your emotions. And then, there's the prescriptive - if you moved two feet to the left, you may have had a better vantage point, and if you used a larger aperture, then the background would have been less prominent... The latter is very helpful from the skilled and knowledgeable, less so from the pretentious and self-important (although occasionally all four attributes are found in the same person). So we can/should contribute to the extent of our abilities and interest. When we start getting paid, we can talk about the responsibility...

 

[JacaRanda]

. In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.

Like a proctologist..sort of! :er:

 

[KenC]

It's the internet - take whatever you can from it that has some value and ignore the rest.

 

[pixmedic]

. In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.

Like a proctologist..sort of! :er: