Hasselblad H4D-31 vs. Canon 1DsIV?

pullwagner · Sep 7, 2011

Hi everyone!

I'm in a bit of a pickle, I'm going to get a new studio-camera, and I'm trying to justify buying a Hasselblad.

Thing is, the new generation of 1Ds (I'm a Canon user already) will most likely have a 16bit sensor, and up to (if not more than) 30MP.
Same as the H4D-31.
Those were the two major arguments i made to myself for bying a Hasselblad (besides the build-quality, larger sensor, etc.).

My guess is that early next year, a new 1Ds will arrive, and it would probably be around 5.000USD cheaper than the H4D-31 is now.
The money isn't a BIG issue (i'm not trying to be an ass), but i don't want to spend 5k more than i need to, if i can be just as happy with a 1Ds.

So yeah... that's my dilemma.. Any advice?
Please convince me to get the H4D. :lol:

clanthar · Sep 7, 2011

Shot side by side all other concerns about noise, resolution and tone response equal, the Canon's smaller sensor is going to give you more DOF than than the H4D.

Joe

Overread · Sep 7, 2011

Canon's 1Ds with the 30MP sensor of godly wonder is - currently - only a dream and might not appear for years - heck it might never come! You really can't tell and you can't put a working timeframe on it (over the last few years many people have been certain that the 1Ds would be out in a few months).

I think that you've a choice between a camera that isn't in existence and one that is - of course depending upon your financial timeframe that might well have some say in how long you can afford to/have to wait - but otherwise I'd make the choice based on what is on teh market, what is known about; what you can rent and try out.

In fact with such a big investment I'd strongly encourage you to rent - rent the cameras a few times and give a try, see how different the medium format angle of view and rendering is to a regular fullframe Canon option (5DMII is a good choice). Even if they end up sharing the same MP that is nothing compared to the angles of view and relative depths of field and renderings that you'll get with each camera.

gsgary · Sep 7, 2011

How about this baby comes between the 2 cameras LEICA Camera AG - Aktuell

pullwagner · Sep 7, 2011

Thank you for the response, it is highly appreciated.
Not possible to rent anywhere close to where i live, unfortunately.. Downside of living in northern Norway.

I already own a 5Dmk2, and i do love it.
I've gotten accustomed to the full frame 35mm-sensor of the 5Dmk2, so the medium format larger sensor would most likely be different, but not necessarily a downside for me.
It's hard for me to imagine how the DOF would act different since i've never handled a medium format camera before.

But I guess it's true what you say, regarding the still non-existing 1Ds.
Then again, the new 5Dmk3 (even if it also does not exist), will most likely have the same specs (16bit + resolution).

True Focus on the H4D, sharpness, quality, PR (it actually does generate confidence in commercial clients) are definate pro's, I'm just not sure it's worth 5k extra if Canon relases something the next months with the "same" specifications.

Technology is an ass.

Overread · Sep 7, 2011

Have you looked into online renting? I know in the UK and US there are several shops and companies which do renting at a distance and there might be similar in the Norway/European market

Big Mike · Sep 7, 2011

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think you mentioned whether or not you have any lenses to use on an HD4, if you go that way. I know you said that cost wasn't the most important factor, but if you have to add two or three Hassy lenses, that will increase the investment that you'd need to make. You already have Canon lenses, and it doesn't sound like you're about to sell them.

pullwagner · Sep 7, 2011

Big Mike said:
Welcome to the forum.

I don't think you mentioned whether or not you have any lenses to use on an HD4, if you go that way. I know you said that cost wasn't the most important factor, but if you have to add two or three Hassy lenses, that will increase the investment that you'd need to make. You already have Canon lenses, and it doesn't sound like you're about to sell them.

The lens i would get with the H4D would be the HC 80mm for starters.
The Hasselblad would be used for high-end portraits and location portraits/fashion, and for that the 80mm should suffice quite fine.
I would like to get a wider lens as well, but it's not something i absolutely need from the get go.

I'm not planning on selling my Canon gear as of now, i have 4 L-lenses, one 5D and one 5Dmk2.
I still get decent shots even with the original 5D, so if the assignment doesn't require higher resolution, i usually bring both of them to shoots where alot of lens-changes are required, like concert photography which i do alot of.
edit: of course, the Hasselblad wouldn't be used at concerts. I'm not daft

Besides, i think the Canon's are of more value to me as they are, rather than the amount of money i would get if i sold one/both.

c.cloudwalker · Sep 7, 2011

The loss of DOF with medium format is very confusing to a lot of people but the way Overread phrased it he may actually understand it.

Anyways, since he didn't explain it, here is how it works: if you take two lenses of the same focal length and open them at the same aperture, you will have no difference in the DOF no matter what the format, 35 mm, MF or LF. However, when you consider similar angles of view, ie a 50mm lens on a DSLR and an 80mm lens, there is a loss of DOF because a longer lens has less of it. Simple enough.

Now, I agree that a MF camera does have an impact on the customer. I got my first Hassy to do weddings because you were not taken seriously as a wedding photog with a 35mm camera where I lived. Don't think for one minute that the customers saw the IQ difference though. They didn't. But if you are shooting for design/marketing pros they see the difference. So which camera you get today is more of a question of who your customers are and if the type of shoots you do will pay for it. I shoot for large corporations with money to waste and I have a Hassy system in all 3 of my studios. But to be honest, some of the work we do here could be shot with a DSLR and it would make no difference in the end result.

However, some of my clients sit in on the shoots and it makes them happy to see Hassys...

Depending on your clients and type of photography you do, you may be able to get away with an old RB67 with a digital back. Not that I've priced that set up but it should be cheaper. You may even get a cheaper (than Hassy that is) set up with a 4x5 view camera with a digital back. Give me a couple weeks and I'll let you know. I just bought the gear from an old retail studio which includes two 4x5s and an 8x10 cameras and I'm going to look at digital backs for those.

By the way, the way it was explained to me by a member here when I was a forum newbie trying to understand digital things, with a DSLR today you shoot what used to be done with MF. With a digital MF camera you shoot what used to be done with a 4x5. Etc.

Hope that helps.

Overread · Sep 7, 2011

c.cloudwalker said:
The loss of DOF with medium format is very confusing to a lot of people but the way Overread phrased it he may actually understand it.

I think I understand it how it relates to macro in so much as the native differences shown with depth of field; however I've never fully understood the depth of field in relation to the focus distances and focal lengths when working normal distances (as the rules there appear to go against the macro ones).
I suspect its one of those things that is not easy to explain and fully understand in words, but its best to try out and actually experiment with to really get it to click in the mind.

c.cloudwalker · Sep 7, 2011

Really? You are basically speaking Chinese to me right now, I have no idea what you are saying.

Let's get it straight here, I am not technical/gear head. And I don't do macro. But, do you speak french? I may have a job for you if you do.

penfolderoldo · Sep 7, 2011

There is so much speculation around about the 'apparently soon to be announced' 1Ds mk IV and the 5D mk III that it's wise I feel to keep it in perspective - fact is (as I and many many others far more knowledgeable than me have said repeatedly), no-one knows IF or WHEN these may come around, far less what spec they may or may not have. As the H4D actually exists I go along with the renting option first - spending $xx,000 'blind' is mad.

gsgary · Sep 7, 2011

Hands on a Hasselblad

clanthar · Sep 7, 2011

pullwagner said:
It's hard for me to imagine how the DOF would act different since i've never handled a medium format camera before.

As you move up in sensor/film size you lose comparative DOF, but not because the lenses are longer. In terms of practical usage, DOF is simply a function of f/stop and magnification. Focal length plays a role to the extent that it determines magnification in part. But magnification is a function of focal length, subject distance and sensor/film size. So thinking in terms of the type of photo you're taking: Frame a shot with an 80mm lens on the 5D and shoot at f/8. Frame the same shot with an 80mm lens on the H4D and shoot at f/8 and you'll have less DOF because of the difference in magnification due to sensor size. Note that you will also be closer to the subject to achieve the same framing with the H4D.

Joe