Is it artistic or is it just offensive?

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Wait. There's a rulebook?

Oh geez Bitter, Rule number 1022, article 1a, states that "If one does not own the official Rules of Photography Handbook, he/she cannot and shall not carry the name or title of "Photographer". This will also deem the user unable to border and watermark a photo as these are attributes of a "Photographer's" work."

Bummer dude...
 
Does this mean that something that is offensive cannot be artistic??
No. However, when the symbol for Hitler is on display, I feel the image is lost...... when out of context. This image to me is out of context, thus leads to an inflammatory response. Had the image been in context of the times, well then, differences aside, it was what it was. Historical documentation is a worthy venture, while modern day captures is not. This is a symbol of hate, genicide and evil..... period, IMO. The fact that this particular image is depicting strength of the regime only make it more vulgar... again, IMO. Shall we show an image of the Grand Wizard today and consider it to be art? The same feelings will emerge from me.

Hate is hate and I hate hate.

Technically, the image is okay, but that has little to do with it in the grand schemes of things.
 
Does this mean that something that is offensive cannot be artistic??
No. However, when the symbol for Hitler is on display, I feel the image is lost...... when out of context. This image to me is out of context, thus leads to an inflammatory response. Had the image been in context of the times, well then, differences aside, it was what it was. Historical documentation is a worthy venture, while modern day captures is not. This is a symbol of hate, genicide and evil..... period, IMO. The fact that this particular image is depicting strength of the regime only make it more vulgar... again, IMO. Shall we show an image of the Grand Wizard today and consider it to be art? The same feelings will emerge from me.

Hate is hate and I hate hate.

Technically, the image is okay, but that has little to do with it in the grand schemes of things.

QFT.
 
Does this mean that something that is offensive cannot be artistic??
No. However, when the symbol for Hitler is on display, I feel the image is lost...... when out of context. This image to me is out of context, thus leads to an inflammatory response. Had the image been in context of the times, well then, differences aside, it was what it was. Historical documentation is a worthy venture, while modern day captures is not. This is a symbol of hate, genicide and evil..... period, IMO. The fact that this particular image is depicting strength of the regime only make it more vulgar... again, IMO. Shall we show an image of the Grand Wizard today and consider it to be art? The same feelings will emerge from me.

Hate is hate and I hate hate.

Technically, the image is okay, but that has little to do with it in the grand schemes of things.

That's the thing.... (not arguing with you.. just stating.. )
Your reaction alone can be used to justify that it is a work of art. No matter how badly you (or anyone) reacts to it, you have to accept that tiny bit. Certain bodies/works of art have been deemed offensive and lost forever. Similar works have survived and with time gained acceptance. Many will even continue to be hailed as a great work of art. One example that comes to mind are a few (very graphic) paintings of "Judith Beheading Holofernes". There is a time and place for everything.

For art of this particular subject matter, I think it is just a matter of whether or not it is appropriate for the audience at that time. The sheer awful mark left by the Nazi movement will simply mean that decades upon decades will have to pass before the audience will be ready.


I find it both artistic and offensive.


What I find interesting is that various online discussions of the recent release of previously unseen color photos of Hitler did not immediately get the same reaction.
 
And, no - although I have a shaved head, I am not a skinhead (you wouldn't believe how many people assume that).
Dude, i'm not even bald (about 6mm long after I shave my head), dress like a normal person, and I'm Polish and people think I'm a skinhead lol.

As for the symbol it's only a bit offensive to me since I'm Polish and Hitler decided to attack Poland from the north, and couple of my further family members died in concentration camps.

As for the image I think it's a great shot, I'm guessing the source of light was above the arm...maybe a bit to the left?
 
What I find interesting is that various online discussions of the recent release of previously unseen color photos of Hitler did not immediately get the same reaction.
I have heard reports of new images, but as of yet haven't seen them. But then again, I haven't searched much for them either.

And this goes along with my previous thoughts..... concerning context. A tremendous lesson of humanity was gleaned from that period in history. May we never cross that path again........ may we never jubilate in ethnic cleasing again. Of course it continues in isolated parts of the world, but hopefully the world of humanity will quash those offenders.

Can't we just get along?

....... apart from the Nikon vs Canon threads.... :lol:
 
Er, getting OT here, but, "isolated"? I'd hardly call Africa isolated. No offence, but try to get some perspective. Much of the world is still killing each other for senseless reasons, just look at Somalia or Sudan. And we generally don't do anything to quash the offenders; at worst we support them and at best we're ignorant.

I suppose that means its art, doesn't it? Provoking debate, oh my.
 
What I find interesting is that various online discussions of the recent release of previously unseen color photos of Hitler did not immediately get the same reaction.

I belive many of those photos were not of the war effort side, but more his interactions with other people and I think some of his private life. Hitler is a complicated factor since whilst he is hated for what happend during the war many people still give the man respect for taking a country in the grips of depression which was also being stamped on by every other nation around him and in only a few years turned it into a world superpower.
So whilst he is the figurehead of the nazis there is also this other side to him as well. Again its a complicated issue and I am sure that if I could read German and surf some German boards that the new images would have got a lot of debate about. There are still many younger Germans who are embarrased and shamed by the wars and don't want any reminder of them taking place - they don't want to hide so much as just forget - as I said earlier this will happen naturally as time goes on - as it stands we are sort of in the middle now as we still have echos from wartimes.
 
I belive many of those photos were not of the war effort side, but more his interactions with other people and I think some of his private life. Hitler is a complicated factor since whilst he is hated for what happend during the war many people still give the man respect for taking a country in the grips of depression which was also being stamped on by every other nation around him and in only a few years turned it into a world superpower.

Hitler Salutes the Troops, Nuremberg, 1938 - Adolf Hitler: Up Close - LIFE

From where I sit, the third photo and the third from the last photo (Hitler saluting his army) in the LIFE series bring the same message as the photo posted by tharmsen. Tharmsen is a more artistic approach while the photos in the LIFE series are journalistic. I believe the photo is a very artistic but will be condemned for its content.... much like many great works in history which have been deemed pornographic, obscene, offensive.

I'll say one thing.... You could get me to put that band on without being sick to my stomach BUT it is a successful photographic art.
 
Under the genre of SATIRE. Just like the monarch Prince Harry. (Of all people, how can Harry be a fascist? Monarchical democracy is the direct opposite of fascism) The pic was well-taken.
 
The image would be stronger in Black and White, it would be more "Leni Riefenstahl".

I am a German Jew. My parent's family died in the Holocaust, the small childen starved in a holding camp on the Polish border in 1939 during the notorious "Polen Aktion", the rest moved on to Novi Sanc, where they were ultimately transported to Auschwitz and killed at some point in the fall of 1943. My father survived by being shuttled off to Palestine when he was 5. I now live back in Germany with my wife and three children, and am raising a Jewish family.

Does the image offend? How far along can a photo hobbyist go in evaluating an image out of context, only on a technical or aesthetic basis? Why does every college girl suddenly have a picture of Che Guevara,without actually knowing the history? Is it ok to have fun with the Iwo Jima flag-raising image, esp. since the famous one is posed? Do we look at an image of a marine's being dragged through the street of Baghdad, and say "Hmmm... under-exposed, and poor composition"?

What responsibility does a photographer have when disseminating images? What if the image gets picked up by a search engine? And then a racist organization finds it and uses it? Will the photographer complain about unlawful usage, or stay quiet because suddenly the association with the image is uncomfortable? Is THAT the point where it goes from purely technical/aesthetic to personal matter?

The question I have is who would actually buy such a thing? What kind of places does one go to buy such things? What else does this person have in his closet? Who are the people in his life? Do I want to associate with such people? Does hi boss know? His girlfriend?

If you want to create powerful images, be prepared to ask powerful questions. If you don't want to, then get a macro lens and shoot pretty flowers. Otherwise be prepared to ask all of those first.
 
The question I have is who would actually buy such a thing? What kind of places does one go to buy such things? What else does this person have in his closet? Who are the people in his life? Do I want to associate with such people? Does hi boss know? His girlfriend?
If you read my original post, no one bought the arm band. It's a trophy of war. My grandfather took it from a dead German soldier. It was then passed on through the family. If anything, to our family it symbolizes great sacrifice for a noble cause.

I don't know, would you want to associate with the family members of those soldiers that freed fellow Jews from the concentration camps? Would you judge them for taking trophies of war? I would hope not.
 
The question is not specific to you. I read your post, I know how you got it. The question you need to ask is how would third parties perceive it? On this forum we know you posted it, with an explanation. The point I was making is what happens when you release something on to the internet. You canbet that since last night this thing was indexed by hundreds of search bots, and probably looked at (out of context) by dozens of people searching for such an image.
 
As for the image I think it's a great shot, I'm guessing the source of light was above the arm...maybe a bit to the left?
I had a single beauty dish about 4ft above and very slightly to the right of the subject. The model was squatting and hunched over with his head down. The arm was flexed and the hand was up on top of his head.
 
If you had a person, maybe a jewish person, burning that tag, maybe that would be considered just as offensive to one group of people as a German displaying the tag on his (or her) arm might be to another group of people.

Im not entirely sure i see it as art. But everyones view of art is different.

My initial reaction was "Muscles...power...nazi flag...german...german nazi power, awesome nazis".

It wasn't until i read the explaination behind the photo that i re-thought about it.

IMH I think a photo that needs explaining to me, isn't doing it for me. But thats my opinion.

Im not sure it matters where the symbol originated from, but the context in which it is used and displayed is important. This to me looks like a promotion for the nazi party. Sorry.

I'm not offended by it though, more nonchalant about it, but i could see why someone might be offended by it and wouldn't use a shot like that myself.

Maybe there are other ways to convey the message without crossed wires?
 
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