People Photography - A question about boobz

[limr]

Fair observation. (Although I didn't say it quite as bluntly as you perhaps think.) Another indication that I need to be clear and explicit about my reason for asking.

I was just going by what you wrote:

For example, I once asked a model, through a text, "Are you planning on wearing a bra with that dress?", as the picture of the dress that she had sent me showed her wearing it with no bra. That sentence was the extent of my broaching of the subject. This appeared to make her freak out, and she then proceeded to cancel the morning of the shoot. This experience does not appear to square with the message I'm getting here of "just be honest about it."

As per @pixmedic 's point about offering suggestions rather than "berating" (PS - I was not berating, but rather simply addressing the issue of why that text might have offended the model), I would suggest making the conversation part of your initial pitch rather than trying to get models you already know to show more and more skin.

When you are trying to broach the subject with someone you've already worked with, it makes it feel kind of like a bait-and-switch - like this was your motive all along, to just get more cleavage. If that's not what she expects, then it can be very off-putting.

Even if it's the first time working with a model, don't wait until the shoot is already arranged before the conversation comes up. If these things aren't discussed before the shoot, it can be unnerving to be asked about undergarments. The model might be asking herself why it even matters if she is wearing a bra, and then wonder what ultimately she might be asked to do during the shoot. "Was this the plan all along, to get me to show cleavage?"

How about introducing the topic explicitely: "What are your boundaries/what is your comfort level when it comes to more revealing outfits during a shoot?" This way it sounds not like a, "Hey, how can I get you to show more skin?" to "Tell me your boundaries so I can respect them and work within those boundaries so I don't unintentionally make you feel uncomfortable." Don't make the conversation about what she is sort of willing to do or tolerate, but about the her comfort zone and boundaries. "There are times when I might want to see how an outfit or a pose looks if the clothes are more revealing. Please let me know if this is something you are comfortable with, and if not, then we will work with different outfits." or something like that.

All cards on the table right from the start.

And yes, I have been on the receiving end of the conversation, so it's not just inferring what someone might think about the question.

 

[ElNico]

That sounds very helpful, thank you. I have one major note about it offhand, though.

You say (as have others) that this conversation needs to occur pre-shoot, and I agree. Here, you further specified that it should occur before she makes any kind of commitment, so as to not appear to be pulling a bait-and-switch; this also makes sense to me. Here's the thing about that though: Of the five incidents I mentioned, in two of them, the conversation about bras and/or cleavage occurred during the same in-person, pre-shoot meeting where we later talked about dates. Meaning that, if this is indeed what caused her to later cancel and break contact (which again is only my speculation for lack of a better explanation), then she COULD have said "no I'm not comfortable with that" before agreeing to a date, but elected to instead proceed to make a commitment (if a tentative one) and then go back on it later; presumably because she didn't want to tell me no in person.

So, in short: If bringing up the subject before talking about dates but still within the same conversation isn't good enough, then what is? The obvious answer is some permutation of "even earlier"; but how to go about that? Should I talk about it via text/email before meeting in person? Should I bring it up in person but then put off making plans until later? Or do I just need to handle the discussion correctly (as you've laid out), to ensure that she won't subsequently make a commitment unless she's ACTUALLY comfortable with what we've agreed?

EDIT

Also:

(Although I didn't say it quite as bluntly as you perhaps think.)

I was just going by what you wrote:

For example, I once asked a model, through a text, "Are you planning on wearing a bra with that dress?", as the picture of the dress that she had sent me showed her wearing it with no bra. That sentence was the extent of my broaching of the subject. This appeared to make her freak out, and she then proceeded to cancel the morning of the shoot. This experience does not appear to square with the message I'm getting here of "just be honest about it."

The main distinction I was alluding to is that the text did not consist entirely of just that sentence, as I think you were assuming. I also SORT OF explained why I was asking, although probably not nearly well enough (as this thread is making me see).

 

[limr]

dates. Meaning that, if this is indeed what caused her to later cancel and break contact (which again is only my speculation for lack of a better explanation), then she COULD have said "no I'm not comfortable with that" before agreeing to a date, but elected to instead proceed to make a commitment (if a tentative one) and then go back on it later; presumably because she didn't want to tell me no in person.

a) People are allowed to change their minds;
b) It's a big assumption to say those models changed their minds because of the cleavage issue, especially with no other evidence except that they changed their minds;
c) Even if your assumption is correct, it still difficult to say why the models didn't want to say no in person. Was it something about their personalities, or was it something about the interaction? In other words, was it them or was it you? As I said before, it's not just what you say, but how you say it. So the what and the when might have been what was suggested in this thread, but the how hadn't changed yet.
(EDIT: And no, there's no way of knowing for sure, and I'm not suggesting that this is the reason they backed out. See (b) ).
d) Changing the way you approach the conversation may make it more likely to avoid this kind of situation, but there's no guarantee. See (a).

So, in short: If bringing up the subject before talking about dates but still within the same conversation isn't good enough, then what is? The obvious answer is some permutation of "even earlier"; but how to go about that? Should I talk about it via text/email before meeting in person? Should I bring it up in person but then put off making plans until later? Or do I just need to handle the discussion correctly (as you've laid out), to ensure that she won't subsequently make a commitment unless she's ACTUALLY comfortable with what we've agreed?

Yes, you need to handle the conversation correctly, but also remember that you can still do everything right and people will still change their minds. You have control over what you say and how you handle the situation, but you do not have control over other people, so there is no way short of chaining them to a wall to ensure that they will follow through.

No, do not chain anyone to a wall.

The main distinction I was alluding to is that the text did not consist entirely of just that sentence, as I think you were assuming. I also SORT OF explained why I was asking, although probably not nearly well enough (as this thread is making me see).

Again, I can only go by what you wrote. You said "I wrote X." That means to me that "He wrote X." Of course I know that this line took place in a larger conversation, but that is the line that you singled out as the reason this model backed out, and so that is the line that matters.

 

[ElNico]

You have control over what you say and how you handle the situation, but you do not have control over other people, so there is no way short of chaining them to a wall to ensure that they will follow through.

No, do not chain anyone to a wall.

Agreed, and "ensure" was indeed the wrong word to use. You've answered "yes" to the question I was effectively asking.

Again, I can only go by what you wrote. You said "I wrote X." That means to me that "He wrote X." Of course I know that this line took place in a larger conversation, but that is the line that you singled out as the reason this model backed out, and so that is the line that matters.

What I said was that I didn't say it as "bluntly" as you might have assumed, and whether that sentence was the entire text or not makes a difference to the bluntness. You appeared to be making an assumption about that parameter, which I was correcting. I'm not saying making that assumption was unreasonable; just explaining what was actually the case.

 

[limr]

What I said was that I didn't say it as "bluntly" as you might have assumed, and whether that sentence was the entire text or not makes a difference to the bluntness. You appeared to be making an assumption about that parameter, which I was correcting. I'm not saying making that assumption was unreasonable; just explaining what was actually the case.

How can I make this clear?

The model reacted negatively to those words. The context could have been all puppies and rainbows, but if she felt badly about that sentence, then that sentence is the problem. And the answer should not be, "Well, she shouldn't have reacted badly to that sentence because my other sentences were nicer."

 

[Designer]

I think it's time to lock this thread.

 

[ElNico]

How can I make this clear?

The model reacted negatively to those words. The context could have been all puppies and rainbows, but if she felt badly about that sentence, then that sentence is the problem. And the answer should not be, "Well, she shouldn't have reacted badly to that sentence because my other sentences were nicer."

I understand that much perfectly by now. I think that you and I are just taking past eachother about this point now.
Thank you again though for your third-most-recent post; that information looks very helpful.

Meaning that, if this is indeed what caused her to later cancel and break contact (which again is only my speculation for lack of a better explanation), then she COULD have said "no I'm not comfortable with that" before agreeing to a date, but elected to instead proceed to make a commitment (if a tentative one) and then go back on it later; presumably because she didn't want to tell me no in person.

ElNico; you have a LOT to learn about women. May I suggest that you try a different approach altogether, i.e.: seek out and hire ONLY those models that are willing to pose nude. Then there's no issue.

Or just forget about it completely. No "cleavage", no "chest", no "boobz", and no "bra talk". At all. Ever.

Pick one.

BTW; I think it's time to lock this thread.

Before we lock this thread, could you please elaborate on this point? Why is there no middle ground between "willing to pose nude" and "willing to show cleavage and have a conversation that includes the word 'bra?'" And, while I don't doubt that I have much to learn about women, what in particular does the paragraph you quoted suggest I'm ignorant of?

Also, as to the first of those questions, this leads into something else I wanted to ask, which I touched on earlier but didn't ask outright: Is it possible that some (or many) women are turned off by the mere MENTION of undergarments, REGARDLESS of how much skin or cleavage they are in fact willing to show, and REGARDLESS of how I approach the subject? Like, if I ask if a model is comfortable showing cleavage or wearing a push up bra, her internal reaction regardless of how I approach it and even if the actual answer to that question is yes, is "OMG, he's talking about BRAS, the PERVERT!" If so, that would be helpful information.

On a bit of a side note, I am aware that I am not an expert on how women can be expected to react to things; but, I say once again, attempting to improve that, with respect to this particular subject, is what I am doing here.

 

[limr]

touched on earlier but didn't ask outright: Is it possible that some (or many) women are turned off by the mere MENTION of undergarments, REGARDLESS of how much skin or cleavage they are in fact willing to show, and REGARDLESS of how I approach the subject? Like, if I ask if a model is comfortable showing cleavage or wearing a push up bra, her internal reaction regardless of how I approach it and even if the actual answer to that question is yes, is "OMG, he's talking about BRAS, the PERVERT!" If so, that would be helpful information.

On a bit of a side note, I am aware that I am not an expert on how women can be expected to react to things; but, I say once again, attempting to improve that, with respect to this particular subject, is what I am doing here.

Yes, there are always going to be some women who are put off at the mention of bras or cleavage. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the woman is always going to react negatively to the conversation, but you just never know if the woman just got cat-called on her way to meet you, or if she has to deal with a colleague or friend who is always staring at her chest, or if she has a history of harassment and/or abuse, or if she is just tired, so tired, of hearing about breasts again, because, you see, most of us can't go a single day of our lives without some kind of reference to our breasts (in person, in advertising, in overheard conversation, in television or movies...). Most of us can brush it off and move on with our days, but if you catch a woman at a bad moment, she may just not be in the mood to deal with a conversation about how much cleavage she's willing to show.

You might consider getting a female assistant to help set up your shoots or work with the model on wardrobe.

It's probably not the topic, or even how you say it, but more in the timing. In other words; talking about her "cleavage" or bra on the first meeting or even the second is going to be a big turn-off, and she will see red flags, red flares, red flashing lights, and maybe even hear a siren. Why not get to know your model better before you start talking about "boobz" and underwear? I think it works quite well for other guys.

Um...what works well for other guys? Getting to know someone in a professional capacity and then starting to talk about her breasts? Yeah, no, that doesn't work well.

It also depends on what kind of shooting the OP is doing. By the way, OP, what kind of shooting are you doing? Are you trying to do fashion shoots? Is that why the model's undergarments are so important? Even so, I can't imagine why push-up bras or the amount of cleavage shown is a more important issue than lighting or posing or composition. But if what you are trying to do is to build a portfolio that includes more lingerie or boudoir, then it could be a simple matter of adding to your contract that some shoots will involve wardrobe that will be more revealing, and does the model agree to this?

If you are relying on the model to choose her wardrobe because she also wants to build her portfolio, then just let her wear what she feels comfortable with, And hey, this might be a crazy idea here, but maybe just don't ask her about her bra. Or before the shoot, tell her to bring a range of looks so she can try a few casual looks, a few sexy looks, a few sporty looks...Let her decide what she feels comfortable with.

 

[limr]

And, while I don't doubt that I have much to learn about women, what in particular does the paragraph you quoted suggest I'm ignorant of?

It's probably not the topic, or even how you say it, but more in the timing. In other words; talking about her "cleavage" or bra on the first meeting or even the second is going to be a big turn-off, and she will see red flags, red flares, red flashing lights, and maybe even hear a siren. Why not get to know your model better before you start talking about "boobz" and underwear? I think it works quite well for other guys.

Let me elaborate.

The red flags are not raised if the conversation happens at the start of a business relationship when both parties are establishing the parameters of the work to be done.

What does raise red flags is if the photographer starts out asking for X, then asks for Y. This can be inferred by the model to mean that if the photographer is now asking for Y, what is Z going to be? Where is this going? What is he going to ask for next?

Instead, right from the start, clear expections should be laid out by both parties.

Look for contract clauses with some kind of language that describes types of shoots and the related wardrobes associated with them, something along the lines of...

'Here is a list of the kinds of shoots that I do. Please initial next to the ones that you would be interested in participating in:
1. Casual lifestyle (sportswear, outdoor...)
2. Formal portraits
3. Boudoir (lingerie, bra and panty, no nudes)
4. Sports (athletic wear)
5. Swimwear (one-piece, bikinis)
6. Evening wear (gowns, some cleavage...)" etc.

 

[limr]

Read your OP:

What I'm talking about, is when they've said that they like such a garment (or selected it themselves, from their own stuff or from a group of items I've shown them), but I don't know HOW they plan to wear it; in as much as there's quite a difference in the effect created between wearing a low neckline with a pushup bra, a "normal" bra, or NO bra.

If it's an outfit they have chosen themselves, I'd say just leave it alone.

If it's a suggested garment, how about, "This garment will drape differently depending on body type and undergarments, so please bring a selection of undergarments so we can decide together what looks best and what you are comfortable with." And I suggest talking about wardrobe at a separate meeting, and choosing several different looks that you will mutually choose on the day of the shoot, depending on how they look on the model and how they suit the image you are trying to create. Make it a decision that you are both making, and don't make it seem like you're saying, "I know better how the lines will look, so that's why I'm asking you if you will wear a push-up bra."

 

[Derrel]

One suggestion to you That I have is not to handle sensitive conversations via text, but rather person to person or by voice call. Text is a Poor method to communicate things in a nuanced manner.. Secondly yes, Model Mayhem has a high flake factor, Yet still I have had some good shoots from people I met there.

 

[Designer]

Gud Luk, Mr. ElNico, I wish you all the best.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Asking about push up bras seems to imply you want to see cleavage. I don't know what the purpose is for these shoots. Do you have contracts with clear language on potential usage of the photos? Do you have a website with a bio, portfolio, etc.? I'm not sure what you're doing or what you're going for.

Whatever you're saying or doing when you meet with prospective models seems to not be working; it seems to be coming across like you may want more than just doing a fashion shoot. Their reactions could be somewhat protective measures, being cordial enough at the time but once they're out of there decide they're not coming back. They may feel uncomfortable saying no at the time because of the potential of getting a negative a reaction if they do. They don't know if you're one of the creeps or a decent guy who's maybe just new enough to be coming across in an awkward way.

If you really want to learn, try to find a pro photographer who would let you come observe, or find a workshop, etc.

 

[ElNico]

It also depends on what kind of shooting the OP is doing. By the way, OP, what kind of shooting are you doing? Are you trying to do fashion shoots?

In terms of what I'm focusing on right now, that shoots I'm trying to do can mostly be categorized as the sexier end of fashion, or perhaps the intersection between fashion and glamour. I'm not entirely sure that I correctly understand what "glamour photography" implies, so the latter description might not be accurate; basically, if you're picturing something that could not arguably be called fashion, that that's probably not it.

This is a good example of the kind of photoshoot I'm trying to do. Not necessarily done in a studio; but in terms of the outfit, the poses, and the overall vibe and feel of the set.

That set is also a good example, I feel, of why I consider the undergarments to be a relevant factor. The model in that set is clearly wearing a push up bra, and if she were instead wearing the same dress with no bra, the resulting aesthetic and tone would be not insignificantly different. Not worse, in the sense that the cleavage makes the shoot, just different. So this is what I meant when I said it my OP, "I feel like it's only fair to want to get on the same page with a model as to the "vision" of a set or concept, including cleavage or the lack thereof."

Even so, I can't imagine why push-up bras or the amount of cleavage shown is a more important issue than lighting or posing or composition.

Short answer to avoid getting off topic: I didn't say it was.

If you are relying on the model to choose her wardrobe because she also wants to build her portfolio, then just let her wear what she feels comfortable with, And hey, this might be a crazy idea here, but maybe just don't ask her about her bra.

If it's an outfit they have chosen themselves, I'd say just leave it alone.

Roger.

If it's a suggested garment, how about, "This garment will drape differently depending on body type and undergarments, so please bring a selection of undergarments so we can decide together what looks best and what you are comfortable with."

That sounds excellent, thank you.

And I suggest talking about wardrobe at a separate meeting, and choosing several different looks that you will mutually choose on the day of the shoot, depending on how they look on the model and how they suit the image you are trying to create.

I would much prefer to go into the actual shoot knowing what outfits we are and aren't using. If she wants to try on outfits to see whether she likes them, how they actually look on her, and whether they fit her, I have no problem with that; but I'd want to do that in a pre-shoot meeting, rather than on the day of the shoot. The reason for this is that I make a lot of notes about posing direction when preparing for a shoot, so if I'm planning for a certain outfit and then that outfit doesn't get used, that means a lot of unnecessary work.

One suggestion to you That I have is not to handle sensitive conversations via text, but rather person to person or by voice call.

What if she doesn't want to meet before the shoot, but instead just wants to go ahead with it? My instinct in that scenario, so far, as been to not ask her to go to any more trouble than she wants to. Should I push for a pre-shoot meeting in all cases?

I don't know what the purpose is for these shoots.

Building my portfolio, and expressing creative energies (in other words, the creation of art because I enjoy it). But I feel like both of those things should go without saying, so I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Why does it matter if the young woman in the sample photos linked had something done such as implants, or is wearing a heckuva push up bra that doesn't show or whatever? Why does that matter, can't you pose a female regardless of her bra size or if her breasts are natural and not enhanced? I don't know how you'd ask about that...

Make it clear you're building a portfolio in glamour/boudoir so you get models that want to do that. You need to figure out if a pre shoot meeting is going to be part of your procedure, and if it is make that clear (and that might eliminate some prospective models right there).

What then? What do you intend to do with your portfolio? What are you working toward doing in the next couple of years, or the next few years?

Are you getting releases signed? Doing contracts? Paying models or is this trade? What's the point otherwise if you can't ever use the photos? Are you providing photos to the models? How many poses? etc. etc. I would suggest coming up with a plan on what you're working toward and that might help you be more clear on what you're trying to accomplish; then maybe you'd come across more clearly to prospective models.