People Photography - A question about boobz

[ElNico]

To what extent, if at all, and in what manner, is it appropriate to ask a model how much cleavage she's willing to show? Specifically, a model who is not either one who you've already worked with at least once before - and thus someone who you already sort of "know" and have some amount of repertoire with - or who is giving you a distinct vibe of being "up for anything."

On the one hand, I do grasp the concept that boobs and bras are a somewhat sensitive and somewhat taboo subject. But at the same time, I feel like it's only fair to want to get on the same page with a model as to the "vision" of a set or concept, including cleavage or the lack thereof - and I'm frankly having trouble resolving these two perspectives in my mind.

To clarify, I'm not really talking about how low of a neckline a model is willing to wear; I'm under the impression (and my experience so far seems to confirm) that you can just show a model a garment with a low neckline, ask "do you like this?", and if they don't like low necklines period they'd just say "no" and there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm talking about, is when they've said that they like such a garment (or selected it themselves, from their own stuff or from a group of items I've shown them), but I don't know HOW they plan to wear it; in as much as there's quite a difference in the effect created between wearing a low neckline with a pushup bra, a "normal" bra, or NO bra.

For example, between the questions "How much cleavage are you comfortable with showing?" and "Would you want to wear a pushup bra with this outfit [that you've already said you like]?", is one of those a more acceptable thing to ask than the other? I don't really know.

Thanks all for the input.

 

[Vtec44]

Be up front and honest about it, that's my typical approach.

In your case I would explain to the model exactly how you explain to us, there are differences between pushup bra, normal bra, and no bra. You can then suggest that if she's comfortable she can try all, one of 3, none of three and make sure she's aware that she's not obligated to do anything that she's not fully comfortable with.

 

[Braineack]

Be up front and honest about it, that's my typical approach.

In your case I would explain to the model exactly how you explain to us, there are differences between pushup bra, normal bra, and no bra. You can then suggest that if she's comfortable she can try all, one of 3, none of three and make sure she's aware that she's not obligated to do anything that she's not fully comfortable with.

or you could take this approach.

 

[Derrel]

Honest, open, up-front pre-shoot talking, that's the best. Discuss "wardrobe" and "artistic range of choices", etc.. Handle it in a matter-of-fact way. This has always worked for me. Ask about nudity or implied nudity, and anything else, all pre-shoot. Do not pre-judge...you never know how a person might react!

 

[SquarePeg]

Maybe start by acting professional and refer to them as breasts not ‘boobs” like some teenager talking to his buddies.

 

[texxter]

I like to photograph boobz with an 8mm fish eye lens, lol.

Seriously, that open and honest communication about expectations is key and needs to happen before the shoot. Especially if the "model" is someone with no experience and shy.

 

[tirediron]

Maybe start by acting professional and refer to them as breasts not ‘boobs” like some teenager talking to his buddies.

Can't overstate the importance of this. If you want to be taken seriously and NOT wind up in handcuffs, you need act like a professional. Start by discussing the overall concept you have and ensuring that you are very clear about what you're looking for. If the model isn't interested, then let it go. If she is, then explain, in detail what you're after. When you're explaining this, it's "breasts", "cleavage" etc.

 

[ElNico]

Maybe start by acting professional and refer to them as breasts not ‘boobs” like some teenager talking to his buddies.

Can't overstate the importance of this. If you want to be taken seriously and NOT wind up in handcuffs, you need act like a professional. Start by discussing the overall concept you have and ensuring that you are very clear about what you're looking for. If the model isn't interested, then let it go. If she is, then explain, in detail what you're after. When you're explaining this, it's "breasts", "cleavage" etc.

My use of the word "boobz" in the thread title was intended to get the matter of "yes, this is a strange/awkward subject for me to be asking a question about" out of the way at the very start. I apologize for giving the wrong impression there. When actually talking to a model, I don't say "boobs" OR "breasts" (at least, barring an established repertoire), but rather "cleavage" when referring to that specifically, or "chest" when referring to the body part itself. For example, "cross your arms below your chest, not in front of it," where by "chest" it's obvious that I mean breasts.

In your case I would explain to the model exactly how you explain to us, there are differences between pushup bra, normal bra, and no bra. You can then suggest that if she's comfortable she can try all, one of 3, none of three and make sure she's aware that she's not obligated to do anything that she's not fully comfortable with.

This sounds like sound advice, and I'll admit I've never been quite the explicit about WHY I'm raising the subject when discussing a shoot with a model. That having been said, I feel a little bit like the tone of this and a few other replies (that is, "It's easy if you just do this") may be underestimating/underselling the sensitivity of girls to this subject. At least, based on my very limited experience so far. Allow me to explain.

Multiple of you have stressed that this kind of discussion needs to happen before the shoot. I absolutely always do that (that is, as opposed to waiting until the day of, not as opposed to not bringing it up at all). But in a way, that's the problem; in that my broaching of this subject appears to be preventing shoots from happening at all. Multiple times, a model has agreed to shoot with me on a certain day, then cancelled (usually giving a legitimate-sounding reason), and then not returned my email/text when I try to reschedule. This has happened five times so far; for perspective, I've managed to successfully arrange one self-directed shoot so far.

Now, I suppose it's possible that I've just been unlucky and dealt with a majority of models that are just rude and inconsiderate. Or, for all I know, maybe cancelling and utterly ceasing contact in this manner is normal for when a model simply changes her mind for a random reason, and doesn't need an explanation; please tell me if that's the case. But, in as much as I look for a "culprit" in my own behavior to explain this, my broaching of the subject of what kind of bra to wear is the best explanation I can think of. I've attempted to get more tactful and tentative about it each time (note though that my *attempting* to be tactful about something does not always necessarily translate into execution), and it's gotten to the point where I'm wondering if bringing up the topic AT ALL is considered inappropriate; hence my asking about it here.

For example, I once asked a model, through a text, "Are you planning on wearing a bra with that dress?", as the picture of the dress that she had sent me showed her wearing it with no bra. That sentence was the extent of my broaching of the subject. This appeared to make her freak out, and she then proceeded to cancel the morning of the shoot. This experience does not appear to square with the message I'm getting here of "just be honest about it."

Again, though, I have yet to explicitly explain to a model why I think it's a legitimate question like I did in my original post here, as Vtec44 suggested I do.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish but this seems to come across in an unprofessional way. I'd suggest you go learn somehow somewhere (online, community ed. etc.) how to speak to people, how to present yourself, etc. Come up with what you'll say to new prospective models and write it out to refer to so things can stay on track and professional sounding.

Your last text to me seems to imply she didn't look good in that dress not wearing a bra (otherwise why ask?). Why is so hard to work with whatever the model is wearing? (And this is getting OT but you having a bunch of clothes, hygiene came to mind, and I'd be wondering when they were last washed/drycleaned, etc.). Maybe models should bring/wear their own clothes.

I don't know where you're getting models, but are you doing this in trade? do you have contracts? If you don't come across in a more professional way then you're probably not going to get models with a professional mindset. And mentioning some models being up for anything makes me wonder what you're going for. That right there might put potential models off.

 

[beagle100]

Maybe start by acting professional and refer to them as breasts not ‘boobs” like some teenager talking to his buddies.

Can't overstate the importance of this. If you want to be taken seriously and NOT wind up in handcuffs, you need act like a professional. Start by discussing the overall concept you have and ensuring that you are very clear about what you're looking for. If the model isn't interested, then let it go. If she is, then explain, in detail what you're after. When you're explaining this, it's "breasts", "cleavage" etc.

My use of the word "boobz" in the thread title was intended to get the matter of "yes, this is a strange/awkward subject for me to be asking a question about" out of the way at the very start. I apologize for giving the wrong impression there. When actually talking to a model, I don't say "boobs" OR "breasts" (at least, barring an established repertoire), but rather "cleavage" when referring to that specifically, or "chest" when referring to the body part itself. For example, "cross your arms below your chest, not in front of it," where by "chest" it's obvious that I mean breasts.

In your case I would explain to the model exactly how you explain to us, there are differences between pushup bra, normal bra, and no bra. You can then suggest that if she's comfortable she can try all, one of 3, none of three and make sure she's aware that she's not obligated to do anything that she's not fully comfortable with.

This sounds like sound advice, and I'll admit I've never been quite the explicit about WHY I'm raising the subject when discussing a shoot with a model. That having been said, I feel a little bit like the tone of this and a few other replies (that is, "It's easy if you just do this") may be underestimating/underselling the sensitivity of girls to this subject. At least, based on my very limited experience so far. Allow me to explain.

Multiple of you have stressed that this kind of discussion needs to happen before the shoot. I absolutely always do that (that is, as opposed to waiting until the day of, not as opposed to not bringing it up at all). But in a way, that's the problem; in that my broaching of this subject appears to be preventing shoots from happening at all. Multiple times, a model has agreed to shoot with me on a certain day, then cancelled (usually giving a legitimate-sounding reason), and then not returned my email/text when I try to reschedule. This has happened five times so far; for perspective, I've managed to successfully arrange one self-directed shoot so far.

Now, I suppose it's possible that I've just been unlucky and dealt with a majority of models that are just rude and inconsiderate. Or, for all I know, maybe cancelling and utterly ceasing contact in this manner is normal for when a model simply changes her mind for a random reason, and doesn't need an explanation; please tell me if that's the case. But, in as much as I look for a "culprit" in my own behavior to explain this, my broaching of the subject of what kind of bra to wear is the best explanation I can think of. I've attempted to get more tactful and tentative about it each time (note though that my *attempting* to be tactful about something does not always necessarily translate into execution), and it's gotten to the point where I'm wondering if bringing up the topic AT ALL is considered inappropriate; hence my asking about it here.
For example, I once asked a model, through a text, "Are you planning on wearing a bra with that dress?", as the picture of the dress that she had sent me showed her wearing it with no bra. That sentence was the extent of my broaching of the subject. This appeared to make her freak out, and she then proceeded to cancel the morning of the shoot. This experience does not appear to square with the message I'm getting here of "just be honest about it."

Again, though, I have yet to explicitly explain to a model why I think it's a legitimate question like I did in my original post here, as Vtec44 suggested I do.

yes, using "boobz" in the titled of the thread ...mission accomplished
www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

 

[ElNico]

yes, using "boobz" in the titled of the thread ...mission accomplished
www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

Huh?

At this point I would change the thread title, but I don't appear to be able to do that (only edit the original post itself).

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish but this seems to come across in an unprofessional way. I'd suggest you go learn somehow somewhere (online, community ed. etc.) how to speak to people, how to present yourself, etc.

Attempting to figure out how to raise and discuss this subject with models in a professional manner - and determine whether there even is such a thing, or if it's inappropriate to bring it up at all - is what I am doing here, with this thread.

Seeing as you assume that the events I described mean that I must be acting unprofessional, am I then to take it that don't consider raising this subject at all with a model to be inappropriate?

(And this is getting OT but you having a bunch of clothes, hygiene came to mind, and I'd be wondering when they were last washed/drycleaned, etc.).

Photographers never have their own wardrobe?

I don't know where you're getting models, but are you doing this in trade? do you have contracts? If you don't come across in a more professional way then you're probably not going to get models with a professional mindset.

I am currently mostly looking for TFP, yes.
I am "getting models," as you say, primarily on ModelMayhem. Which, I will admit, I have previously been told "has a HUGE flake factor." Their words, not mine. That said, I frankly don't feel that I have the luxury at this point of limiting myself to working with models who have a "professional mindset." Getting over the hump when beginning a portfolio is hard enough without being picky.

And mentioning some models being up for anything makes me wonder what you're going for. That right there might put potential models off.

That's not it at all. I meant that what they say (in a variety of senses; what they mention, the impression I get of their attitude and personality, etc) can potentially influence what subjects I intuit they'd be comfortable with my bringing up. I did not mean that what they're willing to do leads me to conclude that they're up for anything.

The most risque type of shoot I've ever inquired about so far is lingerie/boudoir, and then only if they list that on their profile as something they're interested in.

Your last text to me seems to imply she didn't look good in that dress not wearing a bra (otherwise why ask?).

To directly answer the question "otherwise why ask?", the answer is because it's a difference in style, as I said in the second and third paragraphs of my original post.

That said, I'm going to extrapolate a bit from what you said, and venture that you would also take the question of push up bra versus non push up bra as some kind of insult. If I'm right about that, then I think I'm beginning to see the problem.

To my mind, asking what type of bra a model wants to wear, or whether she wants to wear a bra at all, is akin - in terms of what it implies about the model's appearance, if not in terms of the sensitivity/tabooness/appropriateness of the subject matter itself - to asking how much makeup she plans on wearing. That is to say, you don't wear makeup because you're unattractive; rather, wearing makeup for a photoshoot is a normal thing to do*, even if it could be said that you don't "need" it. So it is with bras, or different types of bras.

What I'm getting from you, then, is that this perspective is not universal. In that case, the solution would appear to be to, as Vtec44 suggested, explain to them my reason for asking like I explained it here in my first post.

*(To be clear, when I say "normal," I don't mean that everyone has to do it; I do not believe that. What I mean is that you don't need a good reason for doing so.)

 

[SquarePeg]

To be clear, you used “boobz” in the title then again in paragraph 2 “boobs” as part of your explanation of how sensitive the subject can be. To me that shows immaturity on your part when it comes to this type of subject which may be being picked up on by your models who keep cancelling. You need to get past YOUR awkwardness with the subject and act professionally. If you have a concept for your shoot and a certain look is needed as far as cleavage/neckline are concerned, that is what you need to tell the model. They may not be interested in that type of shot for their portfolio and then you’ll need to move on to someone who is. As far as them ghosting instead of just saying “no not interested”, that’s how millennials seem to roll, especially when there’s no money involved.

To what extent, if at all, and in what manner, is it appropriate to ask a model how much cleavage she's willing to show? Specifically, a model who is not either one who you've already worked with at least once before - and thus someone who you already sort of "know" and have some amount of repertoire with - or who is giving you a distinct vibe of being "up for anything."

On the one hand, I do grasp the concept that boobs and bras are a somewhat sensitive and somewhat taboo subject. But at the same time, I feel like it's only fair to want to get on the same page with a model as to the "vision" of a set or concept, including cleavage or the lack thereof - and I'm frankly having trouble resolving these two perspectives in my mind.

To clarify, I'm not really talking about how low of a neckline a model is willing to wear; I'm under the impression (and my experience so far seems to confirm) that you can just show a model a garment with a low neckline, ask "do you like this?", and if they don't like low necklines period they'd just say "no" and there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm talking about, is when they've said that they like such a garment (or selected it themselves, from their own stuff or from a group of items I've shown them), but I don't know HOW they plan to wear it; in as much as there's quite a difference in the effect created between wearing a low neckline with a pushup bra, a "normal" bra, or NO bra.

For example, between the questions "How much cleavage are you comfortable with showing?" and "Would you want to wear a pushup bra with this outfit [that you've already said you like]?", is one of those a more acceptable thing to ask than the other? I don't really know.

Thanks all for the input.

 

[limr]

"Are you planning on wearing a bra with that?" = "Of all the things I could have asked or commented on regarding an outfit, I have chosen to draw attention your breasts."

Regardless of your intention, that question at that time, asked in those words would have totally pegged my creep-o-meter.

What you say matters. HOW you say it matters at least as much, if not more. And not just when you are talking about body parts.

 

[pixmedic]

"Are you planning on wearing a bra with that?" = "Of all the things I could have asked or commented on regarding an outfit, I have chosen to draw attention your breasts."

Regardless of your intention, that question at that time, asked in those words would have totally pegged my creep-o-meter.

What you say matters. HOW you say it matters at least as much, if not more. And not just when you are talking about body parts.

so give him some acceptable alternatives, from a woman's perspective.
a little education might do him more good than a berating.

 

[ElNico]

To be clear, you used “boobz” in the title then again in paragraph 2 “boobs” as part of your explanation of how sensitive the subject can be. To me that shows immaturity on your part when it comes to this type of subject which may be being picked up on by your models who keep cancelling.

Once again, when speaking to a model I say "chest" when referring to the body part rather than to cleavage specifically. The one exception I can think of, was during a pre-shoot meeting where the model herself had already said "boobs" multiple times, so I was just copying her. Another time, I asked a model "How do you feel about showing cleavage?" Other than that, it's all been mention of bras, and the typing or lack thereof.

However, when I'm not being so careful and detached as to say "chest," in normal conversation, I do usually gravitate to saying "boobs" rather than "breasts." For me that's normal, and as the example above illustrates I don't think I'm alone in that. In fact, I actually consider "breasts" to be mildly awkward by comparison. Can I get some other opinions on whether "boobs" is inherently unprofessional, and "breasts" is a better term? I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to get more than one data point.

"Are you planning on wearing a bra with that?" = "Of all the things I could have asked or commented on regarding an outfit, I have chosen to draw attention your breasts."

Regardless of your intention, that question at that time, asked in those words would have totally pegged my creep-o-meter.

Fair observation. (Although I didn't say it quite as bluntly as you perhaps think.) Another indication that I need to be clear and explicit about my reason for asking.