How do I nicely say "You shouldn't be charging for photos yet?" Please help!

[CandySvoboda]

First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!

So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography. I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with. A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business. The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business! A couple things I'd like to point out:

1)Most importantly, she hasn't done any research on how to legally form a business. She hasn't talked to lawyers, she doesn't have any formal contracts, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't know anything about how to file taxes on the theoretical money she wants to make.

2)Her equipment is severely lacking. I'm usually not one to be a snob and judge what people can and cannot use for their business, but in my opinion, her Canon Rebel and kit lens do not qualify as equipment one should use in a professional environment. I once talked to her about how she should invest in a hot shoe flash and her response was "The one on the camera is good enough."

3)She hasn't gotten out of the dial modes. I would bet the farm that she doesn't understand anything about DOF, ISO, shutter speeds, etc. After viewing some photos she took at a friends wedding (she was just a guest), I noticed that a lot of them were very blurred action shots of the wedding party walking down the aisle and such. I asked what settings she had used and she said "Oh I used portrait mode." I didn't really question anything after that...

4)Most of the time her photos are out of focus (or focused on the wrong element). They're also usually either under or overexposed with blown out backgrounds, improper white balance, and just about every other common mistake people who are first learning tend to make.

5)Her prices and packages are ridiculously priced. She's charging almost as much (about $75 less) for an engagement shoot as a seasoned professional in my area who has been shooting for years.

I'm concerned and frankly a little POed that she is jumping into this without any real experience and knowledge of what she's doing. I feel like people should have respect for this field and I feel like she is lacking that respect. I would like to talk to her about this, but I don't know how to nicely say that she shouldn't be trying to pass herself off as a professional when she clearly is not. Do any of you guys have some advice for me? Have you been in a similar situation yourself? Please help!

 

[Designer]

People do this all the time, and I don't think there is anything anybody can do about it.

Do you have enough experience to critique her photos? If so, you could offer to help her with a critique session.

As for the tax situation, unless you are an expert yourself, I suggest that you don't try to interfere with the legal stuff.

 

[jwbryson1]

I'd completely ignore this, stay out of her business and wish her luck in her pursuits.

Anybody shopping for a professional photographer will know when they see her work that she's not qualified, or better said, what they will be getting for their money. If they choose to pay for inferior photos, then that's their business.

Why do you care?

 

[CandySvoboda]

Why do you care?

I don't want to see her get herself into trouble and get stuck in a jam. She's a friend I've known for some time and I don't want to see a friend get caught up in something nasty.

People do this all the time, and I don't think there is anything anybody can do about it.

Do you have enough experience to critique her photos? If so, you could offer to help her with a critique session.

As for the tax situation, unless you are an expert yourself, I suggest that you don't try to interfere with the legal stuff.

You make a fair point about the taxes, I just wanted to point out that she hadn't tried to seek out any legal counsel.
I've been shooting for about 3 years now, so I have some experience and have done a few critiques as well. Thank you for the advice on the critique session, I didn't even think of that.

 

[pixmedic]

First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!

So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography. I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with. A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business. The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business! A couple things I'd like to point out:

1)Most importantly, she hasn't done any research on how to legally form a business. She hasn't talked to lawyers, she doesn't have any formal contracts, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't know anything about how to file taxes on the theoretical money she wants to make.

2)Her equipment is severely lacking. I'm usually not one to be a snob and judge what people can and cannot use for their business, but in my opinion, her Canon Rebel and kit lens do not qualify as equipment one should use in a professional environment. I once talked to her about how she should invest in a hot shoe lens and her response was "The one on the camera is good enough."

3)She hasn't gotten out of the dial modes. I would bet the farm that she doesn't understand anything about DOF, ISO, shutter speeds, etc. After viewing some photos she took at a friends wedding (she was just a guest), I noticed that a lot of them were very blurred action shots of the wedding party walking down the aisle and such. I asked what settings she had used and she said "Oh I used portrait mode." I didn't really question anything after that...

4)Most of the time her photos are out of focus (or focused on the wrong element). They're also usually either under or overexposed with blown out backgrounds, improper white balance, and just about every other common mistake people who are first learning tend to make.

5)Her prices and packages are ridiculously priced. She's charging almost as much (about $75 less) for an engagement shoot as a seasoned professional in my area who has been shooting for years.

I'm concerned and frankly a little POed that she is jumping into this without any real experience and knowledge of what she's doing. I feel like people should have respect for this field and I feel like she is lacking that respect. I would like to talk to her about this, but I don't know how to nicely say that she shouldn't be trying to pass herself off as a professional when she clearly is not. Do any of you guys have some advice for me? Have you been in a similar situation yourself? Please help!

I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend?

seriously though... this comes up on the forum almost every week. In all reality, no one is going to change anyone's mind about their business practices.
The only two things that will matter are whether or not her clients are satisfied with the work she provides, and if the IRS catches wind of undocumented income.
If she seriously fails at either one, she wont be in "business" long anyway.
if she is a friend, let it go and wish her the best of luck. if not, let it go and wish her the best of luck.
it shouldn't affect you one way or the other.

 

[MK3Brent]

Mind your own business.

 

[CandySvoboda]

I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend? ;-)

Oh my gosh that was embarrassing...That's what happens when I have 4 cups of coffee with lunch! I'll be fixing that typo shortly, haha.

I didn't know this comes up so much, next time I'll have to search the forums more. Thanks for your imput, it seems to be the general consensus so far

 

[pixmedic]

I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend? ;-)

Oh my gosh that was embarrassing...That's what happens when I have 4 cups of coffee with lunch! I'll be fixing that typo shortly, haha.

I didn't know this comes up so much, next time I'll have to search the forums more. Thanks for your imput, it seems to be the general consensus so far

it can be a touchy subject. there is very little you could do to dissuade her without it jeopardizing your friendship.
the best thing you can do is let her do her thing however she is determined to do it. just try to be a friend and not a business adviser. if she does well, you are a supportive friend. If things go bad, you are a shoulder to cry on. you never know, she might surprise you.

 

[jwbryson1]

To the OP: I think you'll find that there are a lot of people on this forum that would tend to agree with you -- particularly the "old school" folks who have made a living doing this for years. They get VERY irritated when NooB's buy a DSLR at Best Buy, shoot for a week or 2, get accolades from friends and family on their Facebook posts and think "this is easy! I'm going to shoot for profit!"

As Medic indicated above, there is at least 1 of these posts weekly on the forum. I think those of us who are on here regularly are so sick and tired of responding to these types of threads that we take the "Eff It!" attitude and say just stay out of her business.

It's not that we don't get what you are saying--we just have reached the point of no longer caring.

 

[Light Guru]

To the OP: I think you'll find that there are a lot of people on this forum that would tend to agree with you -- particularly the "old school" folks who have made a living doing this for years. They get VERY irritated when NooB's buy a DSLR at Best Buy, shoot for a week or 2, get accolades from friends and family on their Facebook posts and think "this is easy! I'm going to shoot for profit!"

Its even worse when they have never shot with a DSLR and post on here saying they are starting a freelance photography business and want to know what camera they should get.

 

[Steve5D]

First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!

So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography. I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with. A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business. The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business! A couple things I'd like to point out:

1)Most importantly, she hasn't done any research on how to legally form a business. She hasn't talked to lawyers, she doesn't have any formal contracts, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't know anything about how to file taxes on the theoretical money she wants to make.

2)Her equipment is severely lacking. I'm usually not one to be a snob and judge what people can and cannot use for their business, but in my opinion, her Canon Rebel and kit lens do not qualify as equipment one should use in a professional environment. I once talked to her about how she should invest in a hot shoe flash and her response was "The one on the camera is good enough."

3)She hasn't gotten out of the dial modes. I would bet the farm that she doesn't understand anything about DOF, ISO, shutter speeds, etc. After viewing some photos she took at a friends wedding (she was just a guest), I noticed that a lot of them were very blurred action shots of the wedding party walking down the aisle and such. I asked what settings she had used and she said "Oh I used portrait mode." I didn't really question anything after that...

4)Most of the time her photos are out of focus (or focused on the wrong element). They're also usually either under or overexposed with blown out backgrounds, improper white balance, and just about every other common mistake people who are first learning tend to make.

5)Her prices and packages are ridiculously priced. She's charging almost as much (about $75 less) for an engagement shoot as a seasoned professional in my area who has been shooting for years.

I'm concerned and frankly a little POed that she is jumping into this without any real experience and knowledge of what she's doing. I feel like people should have respect for this field and I feel like she is lacking that respect. I would like to talk to her about this, but I don't know how to nicely say that she shouldn't be trying to pass herself off as a professional when she clearly is not. Do any of you guys have some advice for me? Have you been in a similar situation yourself? Please help!

Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.

You say that "people should have respect for this field".

Why?

Every field under the sun has good practitioners and poor practitioners, and it's silly to think that photography should be any different.

My advice? Well, simple: You should realize that it's not your place to say anything to her. As bent out of shape over this as you obviously are, what level of experience do you possess which permits you to judge what someone else is doing? Are you a working pro? Do you have that desire if you're not?

I've come to the realization that the only person I should be worrying about is me. Period. I cannot control what others say or do, nor should I want to.

If she's better than you apparently think she is, she may well succeed despite your rants. If she's not, she will fail without them. In either case, complaining about her accomplishes nothing.

But, if you insist that you're in a position which permits you to take her to task for this, tell her straight. Don't pull any punches. Be direct and succinct. Don't worry about hurting her feelings. Tell her how it is; the good and the bad. Leave no gray area.

Or simply accept that this is her business and not yours...

 

[tirediron]

... Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.
You say that "people should have respect for this field".

Why?

Every field under the sun has good practitioners and poor practitioners, and it's silly to think that photography should be any different.

My advice? Well, simple: You should realize that it's not your place to say anything to her. As bent out of shape over this as you obviously are, what level of experience do you possess which permits you to judge what someone else is doing? Are you a working pro? Do you have that desire if you're not?

I've come to the realization that the only person I should be worrying about is me. Period. I cannot control what others say or do, nor should I want to.

If she's better than you apparently think she is, she may well succeed despite your rants. If she's not, she will fail without them. In either case, complaining about her accomplishes nothing.

But, if you insist that you're in a position which permits you to take her to task for this, tell her straight. Don't pull any punches. Be direct and succinct. Don't worry about hurting her feelings. Tell her how it is; the good and the bad. Leave no gray area.

Or simply accept that this is her business and not yours...

Hmmm.... do you not see the irony of this statement Steve?

 

[rexbobcat]

You should invite her to lunch and then when you get there tell the waiter to hold yo rings while you backhand her so hard her weave flies off.

Know what I sayin' gurlfran?

Seriously though let it go. If you must say something send her a strongly worded email. Break her spirit and feed on her corpse. It is the only way.

 

[bentcountershaft]

In my opinion, IF the ONLY reason you're concerned is because you don't want to see your friend hurt by her imminent failure then you should tell her. If that isn't the case, which it doesn't appear to be, let it go.

 

[2WheelPhoto]

bestbuy kit and everyone's a pro