Mirrorless sales closing the gap on DSLR.

[smoke665]

Expanding on my earlier comment. Here's a side by side comparison of the K-01 vs the XT2, Pentax K-01 vs Fujifilm X-T2 Now admittedly the XT2 is more advanced on some levels, but you have to consider that the 01 was released 6 years prior. In technology 6 years is an eternity. Check out the physical size and weight comparison, only 4 ounces difference.

I can't really explain why it failed, whether it was ahead of its time, it's appearance, lack of features compared to dslrs at the time, or typical Pentax run & gun marketing.

 

[cgw]

I find this discussion of mirrorless and DSLR interesting. I am sure at some point I will get a mirrorless but for now I just like the feel of a DSLR better...it has nothing to do with perfomance.

To me it is like a the comparison of a traditional newspaper and the digital edition. Technically the digital edition is much better. I get the Wall Street Journal everyday this way. My mother gets it in print and when I am visiting her I often grab a cup of coffee and page through an edition I have already read digitally.... and find items I had not seen previously. And, there is something about the act of having a cup of coffee while paging through a real newspaper.

Let's not forget that photography is still in large part art and while the technical aspects of the equipment are important, how the photographer "binds' with the equipment is perhaps more important.

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

Hmmm, let's see. Weight, physically bulky, noisy, non-stealthy, heavy-weight lenses, price. Funny how those considerations seem to be offsetting DSLRs' "incredible ergonomics" in prompting the switch to MILC systems.

 

[Destin]

I find this discussion of mirrorless and DSLR interesting. I am sure at some point I will get a mirrorless but for now I just like the feel of a DSLR better...it has nothing to do with perfomance.

To me it is like a the comparison of a traditional newspaper and the digital edition. Technically the digital edition is much better. I get the Wall Street Journal everyday this way. My mother gets it in print and when I am visiting her I often grab a cup of coffee and page through an edition I have already read digitally.... and find items I had not seen previously. And, there is something about the act of having a cup of coffee while paging through a real newspaper.

Let's not forget that photography is still in large part art and while the technical aspects of the equipment are important, how the photographer "binds' with the equipment is perhaps more important.

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

Hmmm, let's see. Weight, physically bulky, noisy, non-stealthy, heavy-weight lenses, price. Funny how those considerations seem to be offsetting DSLRs' "incredible ergonomics" in prompting the switch to MILC systems.

Yes and no.

I just bought into the Fuji mirrorless system because it’s so light and compact. And for certain uses that outweighs ergonomics, especially if you plan to have it on a tripod most of the time.

But for me at least, I don’t know that a camera that small is something I’d ever want to use for weddings/events. While my Nikon gear is heavier, it also fits my hand like a well worn in glove. There are no hard edges, no pressure points, etc.

Holding a Fuji (or Sony) camera for more than 5 minutes just feels uncomfortable in my hand. They have hard edges that dig in after a few minutes and no real hand grip to speak of.

For something where I’ll be shooting handheld for an extended time, my D810 isn’t going anywhere. And I’ve spoken to or read of many other photographers who have this same issue with the smaller mirrorless cameras.

Again, this is all subjective. There’s no wrong answer. For some, the smaller body may be more comfortable. But from what I’ve seen from many reviewers, this isn’t actually the case.

Also, price is comparable between DSLR and mirrorless at this point if you’re comparing the same sensor sizes against one another. Mirrorless actually may be more expensive, especially Sony stuff.

 

[cgw]

I find this discussion of mirrorless and DSLR interesting. I am sure at some point I will get a mirrorless but for now I just like the feel of a DSLR better...it has nothing to do with perfomance.

To me it is like a the comparison of a traditional newspaper and the digital edition. Technically the digital edition is much better. I get the Wall Street Journal everyday this way. My mother gets it in print and when I am visiting her I often grab a cup of coffee and page through an edition I have already read digitally.... and find items I had not seen previously. And, there is something about the act of having a cup of coffee while paging through a real newspaper.

Let's not forget that photography is still in large part art and while the technical aspects of the equipment are important, how the photographer "binds' with the equipment is perhaps more important.

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

Hmmm, let's see. Weight, physically bulky, noisy, non-stealthy, heavy-weight lenses, price. Funny how those considerations seem to be offsetting DSLRs' "incredible ergonomics" in prompting the switch to MILC systems.

Yes and no.

I just bought into the Fuji mirrorless system because it’s so light and compact. And for certain uses that outweighs ergonomics, especially if you plan to have it on a tripod most of the time.

But for me at least, I don’t know that a camera that small is something I’d ever want to use for weddings/events. While my Nikon gear is heavier, it also fits my hand like a well worn in glove. There are no hard edges, no pressure points, etc.

Holding a Fuji (or Sony) camera for more than 5 minutes just feels uncomfortable in my hand. They have hard edges that dig in after a few minutes and no real hand grip to speak of.

For something where I’ll be shooting handheld for an extended time, my D810 isn’t going anywhere. And I’ve spoken to or read of many other photographers who have this same issue with the smaller mirrorless cameras.

Again, this is all subjective. There’s no wrong answer. For some, the smaller body may be more comfortable. But from what I’ve seen from many reviewers, this isn’t actually the case.

Also, price is comparable between DSLR and mirrorless at this point if you’re comparing the same sensor sizes against one another. Mirrorless actually may be more expensive, especially Sony stuff.

Battery grips for the Fuji XT models even things up, making them Nikon FE/FM size and very comfortable for all-day shooting. My X100T needed the Fuji metal grip for my large hands but then that's why they make 'em. BTW, I rarely see a Nikon prosumer+ body that's not bulked-up with a battery grip.

Several busy wedding shooters I know happily bought into Fuji. They don't miss the Nikon tonnage around their necks or over their shoulders. They don't seem worried that clients might consider the Fujis less than adequate simply for not looking "pro" enough. They're not getting complaints about IQ, either.

Should be fun to see if Nikon's upcoming MILC proves to be as disruptive as Fuji's MILCs. They're asking for trouble IMHO with a new lens mount and an F-mount adapter that will have to work perfectly straight from the box. Lots riding on their next roll of the dice.

 

[beagle100]

I find this discussion of mirrorless and DSLR interesting. I am sure at some point I will get a mirrorless but for now I just like the feel of a DSLR better...it has nothing to do with perfomance.

To me it is like a the comparison of a traditional newspaper and the digital edition. Technically the digital edition is much better. I get the Wall Street Journal everyday this way. My mother gets it in print and when I am visiting her I often grab a cup of coffee and page through an edition I have already read digitally.... and find items I had not seen previously. And, there is something about the act of having a cup of coffee while paging through a real newspaper.

Let's not forget that photography is still in large part art and while the technical aspects of the equipment are important, how the photographer "binds' with the equipment is perhaps more important.

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

Hmmm, let's see. Weight, physically bulky, noisy, non-stealthy, heavy-weight lenses, price. Funny how those considerations seem to be offsetting DSLRs' "incredible ergonomics" in prompting the switch to MILC systems.

Yes and no.

I just bought into the Fuji mirrorless system because it’s so light and compact. And for certain uses that outweighs ergonomics, especially if you plan to have it on a tripod most of the time.

But for me at least, I don’t know that a camera that small is something I’d ever want to use for weddings/events. While my Nikon gear is heavier, it also fits my hand like a well worn in glove. There are no hard edges, no pressure points, etc.

Holding a Fuji (or Sony) camera for more than 5 minutes just feels uncomfortable in my hand. They have hard edges that dig in after a few minutes and no real hand grip to speak of.

For something where I’ll be shooting handheld for an extended time, my D810 isn’t going anywhere. And I’ve spoken to or read of many other photographers who have this same issue with the smaller mirrorless cameras.
Again, this is all subjective. There’s no wrong answer. For some, the smaller body may be more comfortable. But from what I’ve seen from many reviewers, this isn’t actually the case.

Also, price is comparable between DSLR and mirrorless at this point if you’re comparing the same sensor sizes against one another. Mirrorless actually may be more expensive, especially Sony stuff.

perhaps - but that "mirrorless stuff" may be less expensive
but yes, it won't do anything for those who think the small and light mirrorless cameras are uncomfortable
www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

 

[Gary A.]

I find this discussion of mirrorless and DSLR interesting. I am sure at some point I will get a mirrorless but for now I just like the feel of a DSLR better...it has nothing to do with perfomance.

To me it is like a the comparison of a traditional newspaper and the digital edition. Technically the digital edition is much better. I get the Wall Street Journal everyday this way. My mother gets it in print and when I am visiting her I often grab a cup of coffee and page through an edition I have already read digitally.... and find items I had not seen previously. And, there is something about the act of having a cup of coffee while paging through a real newspaper.

Let's not forget that photography is still in large part art and while the technical aspects of the equipment are important, how the photographer "binds' with the equipment is perhaps more important.

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

Hmmm, let's see. Weight, physically bulky, noisy, non-stealthy, heavy-weight lenses, price. Funny how those considerations seem to be offsetting DSLRs' "incredible ergonomics" in prompting the switch to MILC systems.

Yes and no.

I just bought into the Fuji mirrorless system because it’s so light and compact. And for certain uses that outweighs ergonomics, especially if you plan to have it on a tripod most of the time.

But for me at least, I don’t know that a camera that small is something I’d ever want to use for weddings/events. While my Nikon gear is heavier, it also fits my hand like a well worn in glove. There are no hard edges, no pressure points, etc.

Holding a Fuji (or Sony) camera for more than 5 minutes just feels uncomfortable in my hand. They have hard edges that dig in after a few minutes and no real hand grip to speak of.

For something where I’ll be shooting handheld for an extended time, my D810 isn’t going anywhere. And I’ve spoken to or read of many other photographers who have this same issue with the smaller mirrorless cameras.

Again, this is all subjective. There’s no wrong answer. For some, the smaller body may be more comfortable. But from what I’ve seen from many reviewers, this isn’t actually the case.

Also, price is comparable between DSLR and mirrorless at this point if you’re comparing the same sensor sizes against one another. Mirrorless actually may be more expensive, especially Sony stuff.

Battery grips for the Fuji XT models even things up, making them Nikon FE/FM size and very comfortable for all-day shooting. My X100T needed the Fuji metal grip for my large hands but then that's why they make 'em. BTW, I rarely see a Nikon prosumer+ body that's not bulked-up with a battery grip.

Several busy wedding shooters I know happily bought into Fuji. They don't miss the Nikon tonnage around their necks or over their shoulders. They don't seem worried that clients might consider the Fujis less than adequate simply for not looking "pro" enough. They're not getting complaints about IQ, either.

Should be fun to see if Nikon's upcoming MILC proves to be as disruptive as Fuji's MILCs. They're asking for trouble IMHO with a new lens mount and an F-mount adapter that will have to work perfectly straight from the box. Lots riding on their next roll of the dice.

"Feel" should be the last thing one considers when choosing a camera. But then I am speaking as a former professional, which most likely, has a much different mindset than a hobbyist. I think that most all modern interchangeable lens digital cameras are all similarly designed for the average and basic human hand. Personally, while I tend to favor some control placements ... I know that over time I will be able to adapt to new and different camera bodies and configurations. It is much more a mental thing than a physical thing. (If the photog has extremely large hands it will be difficult to adapt to a very small camera. Conversely those with very small hands will find it difficult to adapt to a big camera. But those types of considerations are the exceptions. There are always exceptions.)

But, (the big but), for most of us to optimize our equipment, (tripod use notwithstanding), we need to 'harmonize' with our equipment. The lenses become an extension of our eyes and the camera synergies into our hands. The photog knows where every 'common' control lays without having to remove their eye from the viewfinder. The technical part becomes automatic or semi-automatic and the photog uses most of his energy and brain power focusing on visualization of the final image, the image in the viewfinder and anticipating the next image and what is required to capture the next and anticipated image as it has appeared in their mind. Harmonizing with one's equipment requires a lot of time behind the viewfinder, shooting and shooting and shooting. The more hardware you have, the longer it will take to harmonize with all your lenses and stuff. (Speaking from personal experience, when one has limited brain power, harmonizing with the equipment is useful.)

 

[The Barbarian]

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

I find my Pentax K-01 to be rather comfortable. Of course, the damn thing is almost as large and bulky as a DSLR; had to be, to use the same lens mount. Ugly as sin, but for a medium tele-wide angle lens, it works pretty well.

 

[Gary A.]

Building on that, I don’t think any mirrorless manufacturer has found a way to match the incredible ergonomics that the popular high end DSLRs are offering.

I get that this is subjective, but most mirrorless cameras seem much less comfortable to hold and use. The form factor isn’t where it needs to be yet for many people to switch.

I find my Pentax K-01 to be rather comfortable. Of course, the damn thing is almost as large and bulky as a DSLR; had to be, to use the same lens mount. Ugly as sin, but for a medium tele-wide angle lens, it works pretty well.

I find my Fuji’s to be sexy ... especially the XP2.

 

[photoflyer]

"Feel" should be the last thing one considers when choosing a camera. But then I am speaking as a former professional, which most likely, has a much different mindset than a hobbyist.

Agreed. I do think that in any endevour, how one interacts with equipment does influence results. I was flying a glass cockpit airplane recently. My airplane has a more traditional layout. I mentioned this in passing to the instructor as I was looking away from the panel to clear a turn. By the time my eyes return to the panel she had configure it to what I was accustomed too but all I noticed at first was how at home I felt. It took a while to register that the layout had changed. The more modern layout is far superior and I would use it if I had a choice but like everything it takes a while to adjust and in that adjustment period results will invariably suffer before they improve. Professionals have an incentive to adjust to change.

 

[Fujidave]

5,10 or 15 yrs folk will wonder what a DSLR was

 

[Derrel]

So, apparently, "feel" is meaningless and worthless. Try an Argus C3, a.k.a. The Brick, and then try another camera of its era (which was from 1938 to 1968). The Brick felt like crap, and had absolutely shitty ergonomics. The most successful cameras of the era, the Rolleiflex models, the Leica M3, and the Nikon F, had by comparison, a "feel" that was extraordinarily good.

When I talk about feel, and when most people talk about feel, they're talking about ergonomics --not the tactile sensation of the leather,or the Bakelite, or the metals used. When we talk about feel, what we really mean is usability, and the actual ergonomics. Let's use words accurately. Feel is another word for ergonomics, and not tactile hand feel of soft leather, or polished metals,etc., etc.

But apparently ergonomics are absolutely the last thing one needs to concern oneself with. It has been written.

Mirrorless sales are on the increase, in an already flat camera market, where the majority of people already have a DSLR,and/or a smart phone camera. Apparently minuscule sales numbers in North America and South America mean that they're closing the gap though. It has been written.

 

[Fujidave]

Every time before I have got any camera, I have gone to our local Jessops to hold and feel to make sure I can get my hands and fingers just how I want. As they know I will buy they let you the buyer even try it out too.

 

[DarkShadow]

I should buy another battery less oops I mean mirrorless Camera.Not I like shooting for a couple days or a 1000 shot give or take on a single charge which ever occurs first.

 

[Fujidave]

Hello says Jessops, can I help you
Hi I say, yes I am looking for a good all round DSLR
Jessops, hang on a moment please Sir
Me, well officer I came in to buy a DSLR
Police, ok your nicked..lol

 

[smoke665]

Mirrorless sales are on the increase, in an already flat camera market, where the majority of people already have a DSLR,and/or a smart phone camera.apparently minuscule sales numbers in North America and South America mean that they're closing the gap though.

When I looked at the chart presented, my first thought was that for a product to be on the increase over another, you have to have one going up an equal amount to the other's decrease, but that wasn't the case. It appears more a case of mirrorless showing moderate increases in an overall declining market brought on by the popularity of cell phones.

I also have to agree with Derrel that ergonomics is important. There was an earlier comment by Barbarian on his K-01 "Of course, the damn thing is almost as large and bulky as a DSLR; had to be, to use the same lens mount. Ugly as sin" As I noted earlier the mirrorless K-01 has been on the market for years, eliminated the starting over on lenses problem, and still didn't take off. Maybe the "Ugly as Sin" and "bulky" does have something to do with it.