Suggestions on something small, yet versatile

[Overread]

Ok so its getting around to that time of year again where I feel more aged, slow, etc.... and get another candle on the cake (the worst part is the older you get the faster you have to blow before the top melts from the heat!)

Anyway family always keep mentioning that "you need a little camera" and to a certain extent I agree with them - DSLRs are great, but a 7D, 580flash and a modest lens (like say a 70-200mm or even 150mm) is just way to heavy and bulky for family days out - trips and general travel.

So I need something smaller - but the market here appears to have exploded into whole varieties of point and shoots - bridges - mini DSLRs and hybrids. So I'm left a little lost as to which to focus on - so any here got any advice?

Requirements:
1) Smaller, and lighter than a DSLR setup

2) Long focal range coverage - long end especially - something around 400mm equivalent

3) Manual controls - aperture, ISO, shutter speed and focus (if at all possible physical manual focus not the electronic kind)

4) Expandable - if I can work with my flash units or with flash on a radio remote or something that would be great

5) Good overall image quality (yeah expected ).

I'm not opposed to a smaller interchangeable lens setup provided that its not going to turn into a massive money sinkhole to get all the features I feel I need.
Macro I'm not too worried about - almost all smaller cameras do close up well and I've my Raynox DCR 250 to boost the magnification (though manual focus control becomes more critical again).


So is there anything out there that might come close to fitting some/all these requirements? I've not put a budget on this as yet - I don't know what area of the market I'm really looking at to tell as yet.

 

[y75stingray]

Canon G-10 would be a great choice for you or the newer G-11 or G-12 they are point and shoot with manual setting and they shoot in RAW I belive they have lens attachments for them as well.

 

[orb9220]

Sorry but don't think the G-10 will cover the long end to 400mm.

I would look at something like the pansonic lumix Fz35 all in one integrated lens. With Wide-angle 27mm Leica DC Vario-Elmarit lens and 18x optical zoom The bright F2.8 Leica DC Vario-Elmarit lens ranges from 27mm wide-angle all the way to 486mm telephoto.

Or for more flexibility but more cash is some of micro 4/3rds with interchangeable lens options. Like the G1 with the 20mm f1.7 is a great walkaround setup or one of the others.


Clueless by Orbmiser, on Flickr

I have always been impressed with Panasonic's Lumix series of cameras.
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[Derrel]

I have a Panasonic Lumix that has the long focal length and Optical Stabilizer covered, and good lens quality, but lacks the manual focusing "ring"...everything is a compromise. The Canon G-10 and the Nikon copy of that Canon model botyh have hot shoes, so that makes working with flash much easier. I had a Canon G-3, which was basically the same size as the new 10-model--meaning too big for a pocket...unless the pocket was an overcoat pocket...the requirement for the 400mm equivalent eliminates MANY otherwise capable cameras. Using a bigger flash unit on my old Canon G-3 was an eye-opener...the ability to use a powerful, shoe-mount flash with bounce capability REALLY makes a huge difference in the kind of exposures you can make with a digicam. If it were me, I would rate the ability to use an external speedlight higher than a 400mm equivalent focal length, or manual focusing.

 

[KenC]

Your #2 requirement may have to go, unless "smaller" in #1 only means a little smaller and definitely not pocket size. I have a G11 which I have carried in a pants pocket on occasion. Not the most comfortable situation - sort of like having a big overstuffed wallet in your pocket - but doable if you want the camera with you and you're not carrying a backpack. The basic G11 only goes to 140 mm equivalent; there is a telephoto attachment, although I'm sure it won't get you to 400 mm. Your choice of compromise. The G11 (or its successor) is a great camera. I never thought I'd be able to use a camera with this small a sensor at ISO 400 with not much noise reduction in raw conversion and not see visible noise in a page-size print.

 

[Overread]

Hotshoe flash is good - but the thing is I need the range - I like long distance stuff and if I can't snap shots of those things chances are the camera will end up gathering dust.

I actually think I'm going to end up flitting between the Olympus EP series and the Panasonic GF series. Both are seemingly offering a lot more control over the bridge cameras (Mf lenses, easy similar slr controls and interface) whilst the micro 4/3rds sensors mean 200mm = 400mm (ok ok its a lie but it works this time ). Granted this is somewhat pushing me toward ending up with a smaller separate camera system probably with two lenses (short and long zooms) - but with a significant size reduction over say a 400D and cheaper lenses.
I've heard and seen great things from the canon G series, but the focal range on offer is just too limiting for what I feel I need - whilst close up general family snaps is a part of this, I also want to mix in my own subjects as well and I just don't think it much fun if I can't get that long reach (esp when my sisters bridge Fuji camera can ).

Granted you might say just get a rebel + cheap small lens and crop a bit - but honestly I'd end up with gear creep. First I'd be slipping a big OPTech neckstrap on - then I'd want a wrist strap - then a battery grip - then I'd want to take the "good" glass not the cheap stuff etc..... I'd end up creeping back in all the bulk that I want to cut down on.


Back to the Pan and the oly - the oly looks the smaller, the more portable - but on the other hand I'm worried about holding it - a viewfinder for it is not a small cost whilst the pan has a more SLR shape and hold to it - but its getting a little bigger (though not massively bigger than a bridge camera).

 

[tirediron]

...DSLRs are great, but a 7D, 580flash and a modest lens (like say a 70-200mm or even 150mm) is just way to heavy and bulky for family days out...

There's your compromise; take the camera out and leave the family at home!

 

[Railphotog]

I use my Canon SX30 IS more than I use my DLSR and multiple lenses. Zoom from 28-840mm, 12MP, hotshoe, full auto and manual settings, and as a bonus it shoots video. There is shutter and focus lag, but when I think of the alternative I can live with it. I use it with my Canon 430EX flash and a Sto-Fen clone diffuser all the time, great for taking photos of my 2 year old grandson as he plays around the house. With the wide 28mm, I can get him playing on my lap, or across the room. Fun shooting squirrels in the back yard, with its silent shutter - see attached image.

 

[orb9220]

Cool shot there! Always love those Critter shots!
.

 

[Mike_E]

Get a Zorki 2 and go and have some actual fun.

 

[Overread]

...DSLRs are great, but a 7D, 580flash and a modest lens (like say a 70-200mm or even 150mm) is just way to heavy and bulky for family days out...

There's your compromise; take the camera out and leave the family at home!

It's a very tempting option

Railphotog - neat squirrel shot! I know those bridge cameras are very capable tools, I've certainly been out with friends and they get some great pics with them. My biggest problem though is that I find them clunky and difficult to use because of their more digital controls - the digital zoom is fine, but digital focusing never works and I find their settings more - tedious to change and adjust. Good cameras, but I'm not won over by the totally considering the M4/3rds now on the market.

Get a Zorki 2 and go and have some actual fun.

Eww but that is like icky film stuff!



Also one thought that has come to me - the Oly and the Pan both have hotshoe flash units - however if I put a viewfinder on the Oly I lose my hotshoe - which means I can't beef it up a little with a slightly bigger flash for when I might want it - whilst still keeping the viewfinder.

 

[usayit]

It would be a big loss if you didn't give M43 a serious consideration. They fit all 5 of your requests which btw.. are the main reason why people leave the DSLRs at home for M43.

People focus so much on the body but they forget that the lenses are also smaller and for DSLR systems the glass is often the bulkiest and heaviest part of the system. A little size comparison to put things into perspective:

Both 9-18 AND 14-42 zooms next to a 24-105L. You can fit 3-4 M43 lenses in the same pouch that would only be big enough for the typical Canon/Nikkor zoom.

Here's another.."kit". The bag is meant for DSLR "accessories" not an entire system.

4 memory cards
Panny 45-200mm
Oly 14-42mm
Oly 9-18mm
14mm f/2.5
Olympus EVF attachment
two Batteries.
Strap
Olympus E-PL1

The weight of the "whole kit" is probably about the weight of the Typical Prosumer DSLR body only. The newer Pens will be slightly heavier because of their improved sturdy construction. The Olympus E-PL1 + 14mm f/2.5 is about the same size as the G10. Need faster lens, the Panny 20mm f/1.7 is slightly taller and wider than the 14mm in the picture.

Next to it is a Pentax K10D DSLR which is still dwarfed by a Canon 1 series DSLR.

What you won't get compare to a DSLR

* High ISO performance
* Fast AF (contrast AF is still slow). [edit] Let me add... no where close to the accuracy, speed, nor quick trigger of the 1d
* Smaller sensor than APS (along with all the disadv)

What you will get..
* Near DSLR performance. Think.. entry level DSLRs not prosumer or pro.
* Most of the features of the DSLR in terms of modes and such.
* Better than P&S (even high end) image quality. Bigger sensor
* Interchangeable lenses.
- The Panny 100-300 (equiv 200-600mm) zoom is a little taller and wider than my 45-200 (equiv 90-400mm)
- Some interesting fast primes in the horizon: recently C/V 25mm f/0.95
* Small lightweight versatile packaging that's even smaller than rangefinders.
* Fun with adapting vintage lenses (like me).
* In body IS for Olympus
* Better AF, built in EVF and better menus for Panny G series. GH# bodies do video very well.

Is it a replacement for a DSLR??. I would say Probably NOT. I don't expect it too ... but it has a lot of fun factor.

Another size-up. Notice the P&S LX3 isn't much smaller. Smaller than the GX-1L (small DSLR) and tiny compared to the Canon 1 series.

Oh btw... there's a new one coming to town... looks to be even smaller:

43 Rumors | Blog | (FT5) New full size picture of the GF3!
The lens in the picture on the rumor site is the same as the one attached to my camera above; 14mm.

I posted lengthy reviews of both the Olympus E-PL1 and Panasonic G1 here a while back. Should be easy enough to find via search.

 

[usayit]

Also one thought that has come to me - the Oly and the Pan both have hotshoe flash units - however if I put a viewfinder on the Oly I lose my hotshoe - which means I can't beef it up a little with a slightly bigger flash for when I might want it - whilst still keeping the viewfinder.

This is NOT entirely true. The Pan G's have a built in EVF so it isn't a factor. Yup. The olympus will loose use of the hotshoe with the EVF attached. IN general, I've been ok without the viewfinder EXCEPT when manually focusing my adapted lenses which is the main reasons for the EVF in my kit. What is often overlooked is the built-in wireless Olympus TTL flash with supporting Olympus or Metz flash units.

I also use a optical slave too...

 

[usayit]

Back to the Pan and the oly - the oly looks the smaller, the more portable - but on the other hand I'm worried about holding it - a viewfinder for it is not a small cost whilst the pan has a more SLR shape and hold to it - but its getting a little bigger (though not massively bigger than a bridge camera).

Comparison between P and O offerings is an ongoing discussion at m43 forums.... I have both the G1 and E-PL1. Ergonomically, the G1 is better but the E-PL1 is smaller (main reason why it gets more use). The Olympus bodies implement IS inside the bodies while Panny does it within the lenses (not all lenses). For someone (like me) who adapts old lenses the Olympus in body IS is a very big plus. The smaller Olympus E-PL1 is still comfortable even with the longer M43 zooms because the lenses themselves weight little. Mine also has a leather half case which adds a tiny grippy thickness to the camera too. The G-series have faster AF and are about the size of a bridge camera.

My general thought.... Olympus E-PL1 design seem to be lead by the Olympus P&S team and improved on by their 43 DSLR team. While Panasonic design seem to come from the other end.... starting more like a mini-DSLR and working slightly towards the P&S design.

As for optics. Olympus have lower cost good value and very compact. While the Panasonic tend to be better performers (but also a bit larger).


btw.... Overread, I believe you like zoos. Here's one


P4092105 by usayit_2000, on Flickr

E-PL1 45-200mm @ 200mm f/5.6 ISO 200 1/500

 

[Overread]

Ohh I worded that last part slightly wrong/badly - I meant to say that the bridge cameras were losing my interset in the light of the Pan and Oly m4/3rd options.

But still thanks so much for the info!
I think the problem is I really do like the Oly overall - I agree that it looks much more like the "small camera first" mindset than the Pan which is clearly designed more after a DSLR in looks.

I think the problem is that I really do like flash a lot of the time - but I don't want to sacrifice the viewfinder aspect either - esp if I load up a longer lens (they might be smaller, lighter and have in body IS - but if I've got a longer lens chances are I'll want to use the viewfinder). Out of interst how does the Oly do for offcamera control over the flash itself? I have read that you use an optical slave unit, though in my (limited) experience of these it can be hit or miss if they work when used outside (esp in bright conditions where its acting as fill - the sensor just does not always pick up the flash message. Does the oly system improve upon this limit of optical slaves or are there other options for offcamera flash usage - a PC port or an adptor that slips a cable onto the hotshoe between the camera and the viewfinder?